Donald Trump just AGREED with the no fly/no buy gun control list in the debate.

[mperr7530]

I could not disagree more with that position. Ask yourself, who decides who is on the no fly list? What process is in place? What criteria are met to, absence of due process, deprive you of your 2nd amendment rights? What if the list deprived you of your 1st Amendment rights? Or your 4th? Or how about the 8th? These "initiatives" are what I like to call "pre-crimes". And this, good sir, is the slippery slope.

 

[Akajun]

my stepfather has a common Hispanic name, and surprise he got denied entry onto a plane in south America flying back home evidently because someone else with his name is on it. Oh, did I mention he was working for the federal government, on government business, and had a state department passport? It still took him several days to get it sorted out where he could come home. If he would not have been a Government employee, he may still be there.
It is too easy to get put on that list and no due process .

 

[981GT4]

LOL, wut? P sure your rights have to be violated first to bring such a suit. Let's see...


You see that? 'was' deprived. WAS. Past tense. Not 'might be' deprived in the future. Keep up the internet lawyering, but don't quit your day job.

Bivens allows you to sue the Government , i did not say weather it would ever go any where, but it is possible. also the second part of Bivens is a clearly established law. but you dont need the two parts to create a bivens suit. only 1 needs apply as such a violation of constitutional rights.

A. in your claim a watch list preventing a person to buying a firearm. would be violating the persons 2nd Amendment right.
B. Federal agency's can and have been sued under Bivens not solely a single agent is required.
C. only Federal LEo agencies add people to the list. (DHS, FBI, SD, NSA)

like this discussion has been, it is all Hypothetical since Trump or Clinton have not passed a policy on no fly no buy yet. Keep up the insults, shows you are ignorant and cant have a simple discussion. your starting to sound like a disgruntled millennial.

 

[cajun_64]

Bivens allows you to sue the Government , i did not say weather it would ever go any where, but it is possible. also the second part of Bivens is a clearly established law. but you dont need the two parts to create a bivens suit. only 1 needs apply as such a violation of constitutional rights.

A. in your claim a watch list preventing a person to buying a firearm. would be violating the persons 2nd Amendment right.
B. Federal agency's can and have been sued under Bivens not solely a single agent is required.
C. only Federal LEo agencies add people to the list. (DHS, FBI, SD, NSA)

like this discussion has been, it is all Hypothetical since Trump or Clinton have not passed a policy on no fly no buy yet. Keep up the insults, shows you are ignorant and cant have a simple discussion. your starting to sound like a disgruntled millennial.

So if I understand you right, it is ok if your neighbor sees you unpacking your truck after a day at the range, gets all nervous and calls the FBI reporting a suspected terrorist.

A quick little check shows you recently paid for an NFA stamp for an SBR, one suppressor, and a couple of cases of range ammo. Federal bureaucrat in Washington thinks it over and seems like alot. BAM, you are now on a NoFlyList along with a NoBuyList.

a week later you are in your FLGS and see an AR10 you like. Pull out your card, fill out the paperwork.... sorry, you have been delayed. 10 days later you have been denied. So you call the FBI. DO you think you will find out then you are a suppected terrorist? Ha. So what do you do next?

If the #2 Amendment of the constitution can so easily be taken without due process, you just as soon throw the document in the trash. Burden of proof is on YOU, instead of how it should be ON THE STATE. But you are ok with this, cuz it won't happen to you. And it is that easy and it will take you months to find out, if you can, why you have been denied.

But, what if it does?? WWYD

 

[JoeLiberty]

Keep up the insults, disgruntled millennial.

shows you are ignorant and cant have a simple discussion

I agree that IF it were a law, a person COULD file a suit. You seem to be arguing that no-fly no buy is OK mostly because there's never been a court case saying it isn't. I'm only saying that doesn't make any sense.
A. because there is no such law and no one has had their rights curtailed yet. You can only sue over grievances that have actually happened.
B. because even if it became a law, it's existence does not make it constitutional. The Supreme Court decides laws are wrong all the time.

 

[JoeLiberty]

...you just as soon throw the document in the trash.

Shockingly, many on here are OK with that. It was written a long time ago. It cannot be that important.

 

[DAVE_M]

Shockingly, many on here are OK with that. It was written a long time ago. It cannot be that important.

Parley?

 

[JoeLiberty]

Parley?

Yup

 

[UnseenUSPCompact]

 

[sliguns]

This is quite eye-opening: https://theintercept.com/2014/07/23/blacklisted/

 

[340six]

I still think my OMR {electric meter} is sending the NSA and others info in on me! My phone is tapped, Being followed and more! So I will soon be on some list. So I grabbed a Kimber Raptor this morning. The background check went threw lighting quick at Jefferson Gun.....They must not have gathered enough info on me yet! As I just checked.........tossed the 9mm Raptor and the 45acp one on the bed. They flew from my hand to the bed just fine.......clearly not on the no fly list. Have the feeling that next time I AM DRIVING MY CAR, someone towing a boat will make me swerve and both will be lost FOREVER thus losing them in a boating accident

 

[sliguns]

I still think my OMR {electric meter} is sending the NSA and others info in on me! My phone is tapped, Being followed and more! So I will soon be on some list. So I grabbed a Kimber Raptor this morning. The background check went threw lighting quick at Jefferson Gun.....They must not have gathered enough info on me yet! As I just checked.........tossed the 9mm Raptor and the 45acp one on the bed. They flew from my hand to the bed just fine.......clearly not on the no fly list. Have the feeling that next time I AM DRIVING MY CAR, someone towing a boat will make me swerve and both will be lost FOREVER thus losing them in a boating accident

1/10

 

[Coyote5.0]

There is no choice Hillary or Trump. She wants to increase by 500% Syrian refugees coming into America. We feed, house, educate, and give them health care. We are repaid by people who refuse to assimilate and do things that make life difficult for law abiding citizens. We do not know who these people are. The FBI confirms this. That said there should be a court process to clear people and not violate their rights. But we do not need more potential trouble makers coming into America.

 

[fng]

Won't matter what trump or anyone else thinks on this issue because if Clinton wins, just think about the left wing liberal hacks that will be appointed to cabinet positions, federal judges, and supreme court appointees...the no fly no buy list won't mean **** if that happens,we would have some real problems with no fix at that point. I'm not a trump fan but I will vote for him for these reasons alone.

 

[Vermiform]

Who has the ability to put a person on the Do Not Fly list? What is the criteria for doing so?

 

[Coyote5.0]

Who has the ability to put a person on the Do Not Fly list? What is the criteria for doing so?

The FBI does. From what I have read fewer than 1,000 of the 81,000 people on the list are American. But what is the process to put someone on the list. Is it a person? Is it a board? What is the criteria? Tese are the problems when government regulate itself.

 

[sliguns]

This is quite eye-opening: https://theintercept.com/2014/07/23/blacklisted/

Who has the ability to put a person on the Do Not Fly list? What is the criteria for doing so?

The “March 2013 Watchlisting Guidance,” a 166-page document issued last year by the National Counterterrorism Center, spells out the government’s secret rules for putting individuals on its main terrorist database, as well as the no fly list and the selectee list, which triggers enhanced screening at airports and border crossings. The new guidelines allow individuals to be designated as representatives of terror organizations without any evidence they are actually connected to such organizations, and it gives a single White House official the unilateral authority to place entire “categories” of people the government is tracking onto the no fly and selectee lists. It broadens the authority of government officials to “nominate” people to the watchlists based on what is vaguely described as “fragmentary information.” It also allows for dead people to be watchlisted.

“If reasonable suspicion is the only standard you need to label somebody, then it’s a slippery slope we’re sliding down here, because then you can label anybody anything,” says David Gomez, a former senior FBI special agent with experience running high-profile terrorism investigations. “Because you appear on a telephone list of somebody doesn’t make you a terrorist. That’s the kind of information that gets put in there.”

The fallout is personal too. There are severe consequences for people unfairly labeled a terrorist by the U.S. government, which shares its watchlist data with local law enforcement, foreign governments, and “private entities.” Once the U.S. government secretly labels you a terrorist or terrorist suspect, other institutions tend to treat you as one. It can become difficult to get a job (or simply to stay out of jail). It can become burdensome—or impossible—to travel. And routine encounters with law enforcement can turn into ordeals.

There's a lot more here: https://theintercept.com/2014/07/23/blacklisted/

 

[Vermiform]

I'd have to agree. Until we are given a criteria and proof of oversight in place, then giving .gov the ability to deny gun ownership based on this list is crazy. Anyone who agrees now to restricting guns to anyone on this list, as it currently stands, probably needs to be added to the list.....at least until they get their meds adjusted....

 

[sliguns]

I'd have to agree. Until we are given a criteria and proof of oversight in place, then giving .gov the ability to deny gun ownership based on this list is crazy. Anyone who agrees now to restricting guns to anyone on this list, as it currently stands, probably needs to be added to the list.....at least until they get their meds adjusted....

Chilling: "Once suspicion is raised, even a jury’s verdict cannot erase it"

The difficulty of getting off the list is highlighted by a passage in the guidelines stating that an individual can be kept on the watchlist, or even placed onto the watchlist, despite being acquitted of a terrorism-related crime. The rulebook justifies this by noting that conviction in U.S. courts requires evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, whereas watchlisting requires only a reasonable suspicion. Once suspicion is raised, even a jury’s verdict cannot erase it.

Not even death provides a guarantee of getting off the list. The guidelines say the names of dead people will stay on the list if there is reason to believe the deceased’s identity may be used by a suspected terrorist–which the National Counterterrorism Center calls a *demonstrated terrorist tactic.* In fact, for the same reason, the rules permit the deceased spouses of suspected terrorists to be placed onto the list after they have died.

 

[981GT4]

So if I understand you right, it is ok if your neighbor sees you unpacking your truck after a day at the range, gets all nervous and calls the FBI reporting a suspected terrorist.

A quick little check shows you recently paid for an NFA stamp for an SBR, one suppressor, and a couple of cases of range ammo. Federal bureaucrat in Washington thinks it over and seems like alot. BAM, you are now on a NoFlyList along with a NoBuyList.

a week later you are in your FLGS and see an AR10 you like. Pull out your card, fill out the paperwork.... sorry, you have been delayed. 10 days later you have been denied. So you call the FBI. DO you think you will find out then you are a suppected terrorist? Ha. So what do you do next?

If the #2 Amendment of the constitution can so easily be taken without due process, you just as soon throw the document in the trash. Burden of proof is on YOU, instead of how it should be ON THE STATE. But you are ok with this, cuz it won't happen to you. And it is that easy and it will take you months to find out, if you can, why you have been denied.

But, what if it does?? WWYD

First of all thats not how the No fly list works. as its mainly classified on how the list is actually made. secondly i work for the federal Government as a Agent. so this would never happen to me in the first place.