Alarming article on Sig service pistols.

[John_]

Milwaukee's police union argues its service weapons can fire without a trigger pull. Here's what to know about the lawsuit.

The union for Milwaukee police officers sued the city to replace its service weapons, which officers argue are prone to firing without a trigger pull.

www.yahoo.com

AD from a holstered weapon? Never owned a Sig so I have zero experience with them. But I have never read this about a Smith or Glock.

"At least 22 lawsuits have been filed against Sig Sauer since 2018 alleging the P320 fired without anyone pulling the trigger. The lawsuits originate from Missouri, Massachusetts, Kentucky, Georgia and elsewhere. Eighteen have been filed since 2020."

 

[Xeon64]

Why the move to this gun is beyond me. It is just another polyomer striker fire. What makes it better than a Glock? Other than shooting by itself.

 

[machinedrummer]

Built by the lowest bidder. Just like any other gubment contract.

 

[JBP55]

Still Happening?

 

[John_]

I searched this morning for the total number of P320s produced since release but cannot find a figure. But consider this: 500,000 were produced up to and including 2018. This is going to be very expensive for Sig Sauer. They settled one lawsuit already. And searching, P320 issues go back to 2015. Sig did a recall and installed new parts starting in Aug of 2017.

 

[Jstudz220]

Sig dropped the ball on this from the beginning. Instead of doing a “voluntary parts upgrade” they should have issued a mandatory recall and pulled the 320 from sale until the issues were fixed. No one really knows if the issue is even fixed or not. You can find countless videos on YouTube of pistols returned from sig that were still firing from being dropped or bumping the end of the slide.

 

[RaleighReloader]

My main beef with the P320 has always been the complexity of its firing control group (otherwise known as the "trigger and stuff"). Glock does the same thing with about half the parts. As is the case with so many other things in life, I think this is one of those places where "less is more"—certainly from the perspective of reliability and serviceability.

I'm not going to criticize the military for picking the P320 as I'm sure they had their reasons. But if I was going into battle, I'd be reaching for a Glock long before I pulled the P320 out.

Mike

 

[Magdump]

I own Glocks for their utility but I’m not a fanboy. That being said, I was surprised that our military chose the Sig over the Glock, low bid or not. The Glock is proven, worlds beyond the 320. They could have stuck with the M9 and been better served as far as I’m concerned.
When it comes to reliability and durability, Glock is basically the AK47 of the pistol world.

 

[Magdump]

Ruh roh…pretty glad I ditched mine.

 

[Bigchillin83]

sure would be bad for the fella that appendix carrys the sig 320

either your glock... or your not!!!! lol

 

[Magdump]

sure would be bad for the fella that appendix carrys the sig 320

either your glock... or your not!!!! lol

Ouch! Fer real though. Might as well shoot me in the head. The one with the brain I mean.

 

[LSUpete2023]

Ammoland had an interesting article about this recently… basically Sig fixed the problem and 95% of these cases of “THE GUN JUST WENT OFF!” now are police because they know that the gun had issues because if they can’t blame the gun they’re fired for being idiots

They called it lawsuit inertia or something lol

 

[Magdump]

Ammoland had an interesting article about this recently… basically Sig fixed the problem and 95% of these cases of “THE GUN JUST WENT OFF!” now are police because they know that the gun had issues because if they can’t blame the gun they’re fired for being idiots

They called it lawsuit inertia or something lol

Hmmm
I wonder how many “cases” cops had with any other service pistol though. Or, who decided that 95% of the newish cases are LEO caused. The gun in the vid I posted was supposedly a post fixed date produced pistol. It’s hard for me to trust any report Sig might produce because they’re the ones with the biggest interest. If the law enforcement agencies involved indeed found that it was user error then we’d have something. I don’t know who else might involve themselves in the support of that article except some independent agency that researched findings. I do know, just as it was already mentioned in this thread, that Sig drug their feet and I seem to remember a spokesperson denying a problem from the get go. Denial can be a game changer. For all we know Sig may be still turning out pistols with an issue that they refuse to believe is real. I think I’ll just steer clear of their striker fired pistols in favor of erring on the safe side.

 

[AdvancedLaser]

Ammoland had an interesting article about this recently… basically Sig fixed the problem and 95% of these cases of “THE GUN JUST WENT OFF!” now are police because they know that the gun had issues because if they can’t blame the gun they’re fired for being idiots

They called it lawsuit inertia or something lol

Can you cite some references for this ?

Or even a single example where the Officer said the gun "just went off" and it was found out later to be a lie that the gun didnt malfunction ?

 

[LSUpete2023]

Can you cite some references for this ?

Or even a single example where the Officer said the gun "just went off" and it was found out later to be a lie that the gun didnt malfunction ?

I was wrong about ammoland, it was truthaboutguns here:

About Those SIG P320 Lawsuits . . . - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Like many of our readers, we’ve been watching the slow drip, drip, drip of lawsuits accumulate over the past couple of years against SIG Sauer. These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. Some of the plaintiffs...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

While it is true the gun had issues prior to the upgrade, and some are legitimate cases of the gun's design failing, this has become a convenient excuse for incompetent police.

HERE'S YOUR SINGLE EXAMPLE BRO:
"Not much detail is provided in any of those other claimed incidents, but a few stand out. For instance there’s Lieutenant Thomas Ahern who was was “performing a routine function (test) of his P320 when it fired at him without any force towards the trigger, resulting in the bullet impacting his left thigh.” <-- from the article

Also talks about a female cop (LMAO, I'm sure she knew what she was doing) and some other cop who had his P320 go off wrapped in a towel in his gym bag (high speed officer right there, I'm sure that was the gun)

 

[Jstudz220]

Ammoland had an interesting article about this recently… basically Sig fixed the problem and 95% of these cases of “THE GUN JUST WENT OFF!” now are police because they know that the gun had issues because if they can’t blame the gun they’re fired for being idiots

They called it lawsuit inertia or something lol

Sorry but no this is completely false. Sig did claim originally to “fix” the issue but it’s since been discovered that it’s a design flaw meaning the issue isn’t going away. Why people still chose to own and carry this gun is beyond me. We’ve all made bad purchases before and sometimes it hurts to admit that. Sell it at a loss informing the new owners why and move on.

 

[Jstudz220]

I was wrong about ammoland, it was truthaboutguns here:

About Those SIG P320 Lawsuits . . . - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Like many of our readers, we’ve been watching the slow drip, drip, drip of lawsuits accumulate over the past couple of years against SIG Sauer. These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. Some of the plaintiffs...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

While it is true the gun had issues prior to the upgrade, and some are legitimate cases of the gun's design failing, this has become a convenient excuse for incompetent police.

HERE'S YOUR SINGLE EXAMPLE BRO:
"Not much detail is provided in any of those other claimed incidents, but a few stand out. For instance there’s Lieutenant Thomas Ahern who was was “performing a routine function (test) of his P320 when it fired at him without any force towards the trigger, resulting in the bullet impacting his left thigh.” <-- from the article

Also talks about a female cop (LMAO, I'm sure she knew what she was doing) and some other cop who had his P320 go off wrapped in a towel in his gym bag (high speed officer right there, I'm sure that was the gun)

Not one example you posted was later found out that the officer lied and the gun didn’t fire on its own without having the trigger pulled. One of the cases Sig settled on. All you posted was examples of LEO’s that had incidents with the 320.

I believe the reason we see more cases involving Leo than civilians is because the majority of incidents don’t have enough witnesses or are not recorded. As gun people when we hear about any gun “just going off” we automatically think the trigger was pulled because we know that to be true probably 99.9% of the time. Unfortunately with the 320 series it seems to have actual design issues that make it prone to easily firing from being dropped.

Honestly I have no dog in this fight because I don’t own a 320. I was really interested in the legion x5 but decided not to buy it after seeing all of the controversy surrounding the 320 series. Also talking to some family and friends in the military the majority aren’t satisfied with the M17/M18 series of pistols. A lot of service members opted to carry the M9’s still available in the armory.

 

[LSUpete2023]

Not one example you posted was later found out that the officer lied and the gun didn’t fire on its own without having the trigger pulled. One of the cases Sig settled on. All you posted was examples of LEO’s that had incidents with the 320.

I believe the reason we see more cases involving Leo than civilians is because the majority of incidents don’t have enough witnesses or are not recorded. As gun people when we hear about any gun “just going off” we automatically think the trigger was pulled because we know that to be true probably 99.9% of the time. Unfortunately with the 320 series it seems to have actual design issues that make it prone to easily firing from being dropped.

Honestly I have no dog in this fight because I don’t own a 320. I was really interested in the legion x5 but decided not to buy it after seeing all of the controversy surrounding the 320 series. Also talking to some family and friends in the military the majority aren’t satisfied with the M17/M18 series of pistols. A lot of service members opted to carry the M9’s still available in the armory.

I don't have to prove they lied... just look at their reckless handling of their weapon and it's apparent they are covering their own ass. 99.9% of the times a gun "just goes off" with police it's going to be because they are negligent. Being a cop doesn't make someone a good shot or responsible with a gun. I can tell you the same goes for the military. But you are throwing it back at me for "not proving they lied" when a LT (probably with 15+ years on the force) was doing a functions check with a round in the chamber (which is grossly incompetent or a bold faced lie after the fact) and another case when the cop was carrying a loaded weapon wrapped in a shirt/towel in a gym bag.

I don't own a 320 either and don't have a dog in the fight, but I don't see a company as large as Sig not correcting course on a known problem when the problem can cause a gun to go off, which is a huge liability. I can understand why people were upset that they drug their feet on admitting it initially, but some of that is corporate inertia: guy hears news of issue for large product line that has launched, isn't jumping up immediately because he wants to be sure, then once he finds out he brings it to his boss and that boss doesn't want to hear because that boss doesn't want to tell bigger boss.

So then once it became too big to ignore and they knew they were going to be on the hook for some serious money, they probably went panic mode full steam every engineer work on figuring this out 24/7.... they more than likely hired engineers outside of their company just to work on fixing this problem because at that moment out there were however many P320s that weren't drop safe at -30 degrees and each additional one that went off in between recalling them or fixing them was x,xxx,xxx amount of money average lost... So they spent massive amounts of money and testing to fix this, and their lawyers probably made them pay for multiple independent testings to be done to shield them from further liability in the future. And those fixed trigger upgrades most definitely were going to be pushed hard to any departments that purchased these handguns in bulk because you don't have to chase down individual purchasers or send out an ad blitz... all this is common sense.

But it doesn't matter if it's fixed or not because there's lawyers who smell blood in the water, and incompetent cops who stand to lose their jobs if they can't blame it on the gun.... and if this recall had never happened and they tried to say it happened with a Glock, no one would believe them. But because the gun was guilty before it's always guilty now, or at least they can use that doubt to lie their way out of trouble.

And as far as in the military, I don't know a single guy who isn't some boomer still in the National Guard into his 50s, who would carry an ancient M9 over a much newer M17... who wants to flick a safety all the way at the top of Mount Beretta?

 

[Jstudz220]

I don't have to prove they lied... just look at their reckless handling of their weapon and it's apparent they are covering their own ass. 99.9% of the times a gun "just goes off" with police it's going to be because they are negligent. Being a cop doesn't make someone a good shot or responsible with a gun. I can tell you the same goes for the military. But you are throwing it back at me for "not proving they lied" when a LT (probably with 15+ years on the force) was doing a functions check with a round in the chamber (which is grossly incompetent or a bold faced lie after the fact) and another case when the cop was carrying a loaded weapon wrapped in a shirt/towel in a gym bag.

I don't own a 320 either and don't have a dog in the fight, but I don't see a company as large as Sig not correcting course on a known problem when the problem can cause a gun to go off, which is a huge liability. I can understand why people were upset that they drug their feet on admitting it initially, but some of that is corporate inertia: guy hears news of issue for large product line that has launched, isn't jumping up immediately because he wants to be sure, then once he finds out he brings it to his boss and that boss doesn't want to hear because that boss doesn't want to tell bigger boss.

So then once it became too big to ignore and they knew they were going to be on the hook for some serious money, they probably went panic mode full steam every engineer work on figuring this out 24/7.... they more than likely hired engineers outside of their company just to work on fixing this problem because at that moment out there were however many P320s that weren't drop safe at -30 degrees and each additional one that went off in between recalling them or fixing them was x,xxx,xxx amount of money average lost... So they spent massive amounts of money and testing to fix this, and their lawyers probably made them pay for multiple independent testings to be done to shield them from further liability in the future. And those fixed trigger upgrades most definitely were going to be pushed hard to any departments that purchased these handguns in bulk because you don't have to chase down individual purchasers or send out an ad blitz... all this is common sense.

But it doesn't matter if it's fixed or not because there's lawyers who smell blood in the water, and incompetent cops who stand to lose their jobs if they can't blame it on the gun.... and if this recall had never happened and they tried to say it happened with a Glock, no one would believe them. But because the gun was guilty before it's always guilty now, or at least they can use that doubt to lie their way out of trouble.

And as far as in the military, I don't know a single guy who isn't some boomer still in the National Guard into his 50s, who would carry an ancient M9 over a much newer M17... who wants to flick a safety all the way at the top of Mount Beretta?

You are justifying all of the cases where negligence was not at play because of a handful where it was probably user error. What about the last video posted? That guy did absolutely nothing wrong and has multiple witnesses saying so.

I’m a veteran. I’m aware that not all cops or military are gun people. That’s not to say some aren’t just as passionate as we are about guns. My point in saying why we see so many of these cases with LEO involved is because it’s an easier case to pick up. It’s a lot easier to defend a law officer who has a perceived multiple years of firearms training opposed to defending big bubbah who accidentally dropped his holstered gun and shot himself in the ass.

Is dropping a firearm safe handling? Probably not the best but if you’ve carried for any amount of time theirs a good chance you’ve experienced this. I can think of two times over the years I accidentally dropped my firearm. Thankfully for me both times the gun was holstered and both times it was with a well established handgun that’s drop safe. I say all of that to say this. Accidents happen. It doesn’t matter how safe you are being when we’re all human. Personally I’m not going to take the risk of carrying or owning a gun that can potentially discharge if I’m dropping it or reholstering

 

[LSUpete2023]

My point in saying why we see so many of these cases with LEO involved is because it’s an easier case to pick up. It’s a lot easier to defend a law officer who has a perceived multiple years of firearms training

I agree with this statement, and I'm sure there's a couple where it wasn't the guy's fault prior to the trigger upgrade... but my point is that I'd actually trust the P320 more now because it's been under such intense scrutiny, but I'm not rushing out to get one either, so I agree with you on the last part too

we both reached the same conclusion but we got there differently lol