Can "ghost guns" now be legally bought, sold, traded?

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  • Fordfella

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    Looking over the new 4473 form, that goes into effect next week, to answer a question in another thread, I found some new language:

    Section A​


    Question 1 Manufacturer and Importer:

    • “Privately Made Firearm (PMF)” added to item 1, Section A. It now reads: Manufacturer and Importer (if any), or Privately made firearm (PMF)(If the Manufacturer and Importer are different, include both.)
    A privately made firearm likely wouldn't have serial numbers .125 high and .003 deep. Does that no longer make a difference now? Is the ATF giving legitimacy to "ghost guns" where some states are trying to make them illegal? Will this change in a couple years like the pistol brace rulings? What is the need to get a manufacturers FFL if privately made firearms are a thing?

    I'd like answers to these questions before I invest in a mill, lathe, machining center, 3d printer, et al.
     

    sgt z

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    I always thought that to transfer a firearm it had to be serialized. Unless it was manufactured prior to 1968.
     

    Fordfella

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    I always thought that to transfer a firearm it had to be serialized. Unless it was manufactured prior to 1968.
    I thought that to be the case as well. So I went to the back pages of the 4473 that nobody reads and found this:

    Questions 1-6. Firearm(s) Description: These blocks must be completed with the
    firearm(s) information. All firearms manufactured or made after 1968 by Federal
    firearms licensees should be marked with a licensee’s serial number. Should you
    acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e., certain
    pre-1968 firearms); you may answer question 3 with “NSN” (No Serial Number),
    “N/A” or “None.” Unless already properly marked by another licensee, licensees
    who take a privately made firearm (PMF) into inventory are required to mark the
    PMF with an individual serial number that begins with the FFL’s abbreviated license
    number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique
    identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., 12345678-unique identification
    number.

    This still raises more questions. Can an 01 FFL now assemble an AR and then sell it without having an 07 manufacturers license as the lower was "properly marked by another licensee?"

    Can an 01 complete 80% lowers, stamp them with his numbers and then sell it?

    Can "ghost guns" be "laundered" through a FFL and a stamp set?
     

    sgt z

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    I think the form is the wrong place to reference for manufacturing firearms. The BATFE may determine that an individual is operating a manufacturing concern could lead to punitive action. I don't know because I am not an authority on the subject but I have read published accounts of individuals being considered a manufacturer based on purchases, inventories, etc.
    I would suggest a conversation with the BATFE about your intentions. They would provide the safest route to wherever you intend to go. Also, Google is your friend, just phrase the search correctly as to your intended plan.
     

    AdvancedLaser

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    You are allowed to build your own firearm for yourself. Always have been.
    If you are buying a mill, lathe, etc to begin producing them...you are a manufacturer and need a Type 07 FFL.
     

    DBMJR1

    Madame Mayor's Fiefdom
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    You are allowed to build your own firearm for yourself. Always have been.
    If you are buying a mill, lathe, etc to begin producing them...you are a manufacturer and need a Type 07 FFL.
    I think you're perfectly within the law if you wish to purchase machinery to manufacture your own firearms.

    Don't engage in the business without the appropriate FFL. This includes the manufacture of ammunition.
     

    AdvancedLaser

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    I think you're perfectly within the law if you wish to purchase machinery to manufacture your own firearms.

    Don't engage in the business without the appropriate FFL. This includes the manufacture of ammunition.
    If you buy 4-5 80% lowers and make your own firearm for personal use, I think there would be no issue. If you purchase machinery and begin producing them, you will have a visit.
     

    cajun 22

    Shooter
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    May 22, 2008
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    I had this same conversation with my local dealer last week discussing the new forms. He stated that at his last inspection, which was recently, the agent told him it has always been legal for people to build their own firearms for personal use. You can sell, trade, or gift said firearm also. Just don't do it on a weekly basis.

    What is required now is that if an FFL takes in one of these PMF without a serial number, you have to assign one like stated above.

    They gray area for the agent was whether an individual was required to put a serial number on it to sell, gift, or trade to another individual. I think it is recommended but not required.

    Anyone more informed on the matter please chime in.
     

    AdvancedLaser

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    Here is an answer from an actual gun attorney :

    "The key in determining whether a homemade gun can be legally sold or transferred rests with knowing the intent of the maker when the gun was first created.

    Relevant factors in determining the transferor's intent may include:

    • the length of time between the creation of the firearm and its transfer
    • the specific reason for the sale or transfer, and
    • whether the maker of the firearm frequently sells or transfers homemade firearms.
    For example, the following factors would likely indicate an original intent to keep a gun—many years separate the creation and sale of the gun; the reason for the sale has no sinister overtones; and the transfer is one-in-a-lifetime for the transferor. By contrast, a person lacks an intent to keep a homemade gun if they frequently and quickly transfer guns after their creation to persons who cannot legally possess firearms."

    Yes, if a licensee takes in a PMF they have to engrave a serial (part of their FFL number) on it prior to sale. The ATF cant control citizens who make their own guns, but they can regulate licensees.
     

    jcbvh

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    If you buy 4-5 80% lowers and make your own firearm for personal use, I think there would be no issue. If you purchase machinery and begin producing them, you will have a visit.

    You can buy (100 - "x") 80% lowers, machine them, put them in a box and never sell them and be fine. Why would you do that? Who knows but it can be done legally.

    You can go to tactical machining right now (and in the past) and buy as many 80% as you want. There is no reporting to .gov on legal purchasing of 80% lowers no matter how many - so no "visit."

    There is no reporting to .gov on legal purchasing of CNC machining or milling machines so no "visit."

    If you want to sell those 100 machined lowers, you need to add a serial number, and yes get an FFL 07.

    If you manufacture a single lower, and then want to sell it down the road, you need to add a serial number and sell it through an FFL 01 or 07.

    In red states it makes less sense to buy 80% lowers when you don't have to register anything, and you can buy a box of Anderson/Palmetto serial numbered lowers for a cheaper price at times.
     
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    RT8

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    ...If you manufacture a single lower, and then want to sell it down the road, you need to add a serial number and sell it through an FFL 01 or 07....
    If you manufacturer that receiver for personal use And Then decide to sell it because you don't want it anymore, you don't have to use an FFL for anything, As Long As you are selling it to a resident of your same state (LA-to-LA)

    Unless ATF has changed the rules lately, that is.
     

    jcbvh

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    If you manufacturer that receiver for personal use And Then decide to sell it because you don't want it anymore, you don't have to use an FFL for anything, As Long As you are selling it to a resident of your same state (LA-to-LA)

    Unless ATF has changed the rules lately, that is.
    There is no exemption in regard to Face to Face (LA to LA) that I'm aware of or have read in the regulations; nor would I expect there to be any given the current political environment.
     

    RT8

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    There is no exemption in regard to Face to Face (LA to LA) that I'm aware of or have read in the regulations; nor would I expect there to be any given the current political environment.
    I assume there isn't an exception because it doesn't qualify as an ATF matter. But I haven't yet found the specific "ghost gun" section in the ATF's FAQs

    Private individuals of the same state are free to transfer legally owned weapons for personal use back and forth with each other with no involvement from the ATF.

    Unless LA has law against it, LA residents are free to do whatever 2A business they want among themselves (as long as everybody involved is legally allowed to possess the weapons involved).
     
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    jcbvh

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    I assume there isn't an exception because it doesn't qualify as an ATF matter. But I haven't yet found the specific "ghost gun" section in the ATF's FAQs

    Private individuals of the same state are free to transfer legally owned weapons for personal use back and forth with each other with no involvement from the ATF.

    Unless LA has law against it, LA residents are free to do whatever 2A business they want among themselves (as long as everybody involved is legally allowed to possess the weapons involved).
    I would be willing to bet if you put a finished Un serialized lower, or pistol frame in the classifieds, It WILL BECOME A ATF issue. lol.

    Again, in Red States when you can buy a serialized Anderson lower for $40 or a Glock frame for $50 and Face to Face sell it down the road with no issue; It kind of moots the whole point of an 80%. IMO.
     

    Jstudz220

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    I would be willing to bet if you put a finished Un serialized lower, or pistol frame in the classifieds, It WILL BECOME A ATF issue. lol.

    Again, in Red States when you can buy a serialized Anderson lower for $40 or a Glock frame for $50 and Face to Face sell it down the road with no issue; It kind of moots the whole point of an 80%. IMO.
    I have to agree. I never did see the appeal here with 80% lowers but then again some people just like having stuff off the record as much as possible I guess and that’s fine. Just not my cup of tea but I fully support anyone who wants to use them.
     

    RT8

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    I would be willing to bet if you put a finished Un serialized lower, or pistol frame in the classifieds, It WILL BECOME A ATF issue. lol.

    Again, in Red States when you can buy a serialized Anderson lower for $40 or a Glock frame for $50 and Face to Face sell it down the road with no issue; It kind of moots the whole point of an 80%. IMO.
    There's nothing at all illegal or unlawful about it as long as the original intent on building it was for personal use. You are free to sell it (even for a profit) whenever you no longer want it. No issue of any kind with the ATF as long as it's all inside the state. But you could always scribe a serial number on it if you wanted.

    I agree on the 2nd paragraph completely. I personally have no reason to buy an 80% lower.
     

    Manimal

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    iirc there was a recent Supreme Court ruling that struck down required serialization of firearm receivers, for sales/purchase, and it may have been a combo of 4th and 2nd Amendment issues. IIRC: It was something in the last year, one of the "ghost gun" cases and I cannot recall which.
     

    jcbvh

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    Part of the point of a 80% lower is the "hobby and self satisfaction" of actually putting in the work and building the unit yourself from scratch. Sometimes the point of it is simply, the enjoyment of the hobby. Doesn't need to be anymore than that.

    I agree, but let's be honest here. A chimp can mill out a fire pocket and drill three holes or snip off some polymer, drill three holes and install some rails.

    Real gun smithing is building a 1911 or AKM (or similar) where there are some consequences if you screw up the head space and you actually have to fit things for them to work properly.

    Im not against 80% or building your weapons at all, but the origins (or one of them anyway) is to keep what you really have off the books in tyrannical blue states like CA where you have to register how many butter knives you have (joke).

    Thinking out loud on this whole controversy, greed is what brought this whole ghost gun nonsense to light IMO. When Polymer 80 decided to make and sell and all inclusive hand gun build kit; I knew this **** storm was coming. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.

    Happy Memorial Day to our Vets!
     
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