FAL gunsmith needed

[Jimbeaux82]

I had my extractor blow off of my FAL last week. Can anyone recommend a good FAL gunsmith in Louisiana?

Jimbeaux

 

[thatguy]

I haven't been by in quite awhile, but there was a guy at Hebert's Guns in Prairieville that did FAL work.
I think there are a couple of members on here that build them too.

 

[MyTFAL]

What did the round look like that ejected? Did you find the extractor? What's the history? Is this a new purchase, or a proven fire arm. Who built it? Was it headspaced? Have you made any changes since it was headspaced?

 

[Jimbeaux82]

I bought the FAL used here on Bayou shooter this past Jan.It is an STG58C built by Enterprise Arms. Person I bought it from said he had shot maybe 500 rds without problems. I shot about 300 rds of DAG surplus in it without any issues, plus about 50 rds of various 308 commercial ammo. I am a reloader so I examine cases pretty closely. Never any signs of case stretching, bulging, etc. I bought 200 rds of Freedom Arms 308 150 gr FMJ and went out to shoot it. I was shooting thru my chronograph. The FA ammo was clocking 2900 fps on an extremely hot afternoon and was grouping really well, 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds, when the extractor blew off. Cases looked fine, extractor on the back shoulder where it fits into the bolt looks battered. I do not know if this is an ammo induced event or a parts problem, hence my question about a good FAL gunsmith. I would like him to do a thorough check on the rifle and see what he thinks. But I would like a gunsmith who is thoroughly familiar with the FAL.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

 

[MyTFAL]

I would check head space, as long as that checks out look for excessive wear on the extractor,(edit* just saw the comment about the extractor being battered looking I would order another they are dirt cheap) again if it looks good it may have been a ammo issue. I ordered go, nogo gauges from Brownells if you play with FAL'S they really are a must. All this being said and really I am no huge fan of Enterprise, but I believe there builds to be of reasonable quality. I don't see them letting a gun with excessive headspace go out, but you never know. See if you can find somebody close to you that has the gauges or just buy them they are well worth having.

 

[MyTFAL]

I've been thinking about your problem.... one of your comments stuck in my head....."The FA ammo was clocking 2900 fps" That is moving pretty good most surplus stuff is 2450-2500 fps, and while most builders headspace a FAL to allow it to fire both .308 Commercial and 7.62x51 the longer case length and additional velocity could put extra wear and tear on the extractor. This is good reading.(post below) In my opinion and this is just my opinion, the FAL is better suited to surplus ammo, and to be honest the 7.62x51 is pushing the original design specs to it's limit, commercial .308 absolutely will accelerate wear and tear.


What's the Difference between .308 Winchester & 7.62x51mm NATO?
by Clint McKee and Walt Kuleck

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dumb question i alway thought these 2 ammos where interchangeable but some have told me otherwise whats the story??? jim

Hi, Jim,

This is a perennial topic, kinda like ".45 vs. 9mm" or "Best Guns & Loads for Deer."

They are not the same.

They are the same.

They are not the same, 'cause the .308 Win was released by Winchester several years before the Army standarized the T64E3 as the 7.62MM. You'll get an endless discussion of pressure specs, endless because SAAMI and the Ordnance Dep't measured pressure in different, unrelateable ways. Howver, the chamber drawings are different.

They are the same, 'cause nobody (and Clint's been looking for many years!) makes 7.62MM ammo that isn't to the .308 "headspace" dimension spec. So 7.62MM ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.

But in some 7.62MM rifles the chambers are long (to the 7.62MM military spec), notably the Navy Garands with 7.62MM barrels. Thus, using commercial ammo in such a rifle is not a good idea; you need stronger brass. Use military ammo or the best commercial only, e.g., Federal Gold Medal Match.

Most of the time it's a distinction without a difference. But if you intend to shoot .308 commercial in a military arm chambered for 7.62MM, first check the headspace with .308 commercial gauges first. You may get a surprise.

Best regards,

Walt Kuleck
Fulton Armory webmaster


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Clint, What's the difference between .308 Winchester & 7.62x51mm NATO?

Jerry Kuhnhausen, in his classic Shop Manual (available from Fulton Armory; see the M1 Rifle Parts & Accessories or M14 Rifle Parts and Accessories Pages under Books) has published a somewhat controversial recommendation concerning .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO ammo, headspace & chambers. I broached the subject with him some months ago. He had his plate full, so we decided to chat on this in the future. When we do I'll report the results of our conversation.

I completely agree with Jerry that if you have a chamber with headspace much in excess of 1.636 (say, 1.638, SAAMI field reject), you must use only U.S. or NATO Mil Spec Ammo (always marked 7.62mm & with a cross enclosed by a circle) since the NATO mil spec calls for a far more "robust" brass case than often found in commercial (read .308 Winchester) cartridges. It is precisely why Lake City brass is so highly sought. Lake City brass is Nato spec and reloadable (most NATO is not reloadable, rather it is Berdan primed). Indeed, cheaper commercial ammo can fail at the 1.638 headspace (e.g., UMC) in an M14/M1 Garand. Many military gas guns (e.g., M14 Rifles & M60 Machine guns) run wildly long headspace by commercial (SAAMI) standards (U.S. Military field reject limit for the M60 & M14 is 1.6455, nearly 16 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) GO, & nearly 8 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) field reject limit!).

I also agree that 1.631-1.632 is a near perfect headspace for an M14/M1A or M1 Garand chambered in .308 Winchester. But I think that it also near perfect for 7.62mm NATO!

I have measured many, many types/manufacturers of commercial and NATO ammo via cartridge "headspace" gauges as well as "in rifle" checks. If anything, I have found various Nato ammo to be in much tighter headspace/chamber compliance than commercial ammo. Indeed, sometimes commercial ammo can not be chambered "by hand" in an M14/M1A with, say, 1.631 headspace (bolt will not close completely by gentle hand manipulation on a stripped bolt, although it will close & function when chambered by the force of the rifle's loading inertia), though I have never seen this with NATO spec ammo. I.e., if anything, NATO ammo seems to hold at the minimum SAAMI cartridge headspace of 1.629-1.630, better than some commercial ammo!

So, why set a very long 1.636 headspace in an M14/M1A or M1 Garand? It probably is the conflict mentioned above. Military headspace gauges say one thing, SAAMI headspace gauges say something else, as do the spec's/compliance covering ammo. In a court of law, who will prevail? I think Kuhnhausen gave all those who do this work a safe way out. However, I believe it not in your, or your rifle's, best interest. Whether you have a NATO chambered barrel (M14/M1 Garand G.I. ".308 Win."/7.62mm NATO barrels all have NATO chambers), or a .308 Winchester chamber, keep the headspace within SAAMI limits (1.630 GO, 1.634 NO GO, 1.638 FIELD REJECT). This subject is a bit confusing, and for me difficult to explain in a one way conversation!

Clint McKee

 

[MyTFAL]

http://www.303british.com/id36.html

 

[Jimbeaux82]

Thanks for the advice. I fully understand the difference between 308 commercial and 7.62 x 51 mil surp. While the FA ammo is listed as 308, it is loaded with LC brass so in reality is probably 7.62 x 51. Regarding the velocity, I knew that 2900 fps out of the FAL was hot, but still within acceptable limits as listed in many reloading manuals. Just for reference, my DAG mil surp clocks 2700 fps out of this rifle.

Still looking for that FAL gunsmith as I dont trust my abilities to sort it out beside the most simple of problems.

 

[Akajun]

Way too hot on that ammo. The problem with overpressure rounds is that the rise in pressure is not linear with the rise in velocity so while you are only 200 fps above normal velocity, I bet you are way over pressure. Also if your using LC brass its military brass, and is thicker than commercial, meaning you should reduce loads by at least one grain of published data. A good copy of nato ball ammo is 45-46 grains of Varget over a 150 -168 grain bullet, seated to mag length. 4895 is also a good powder for a fal, dont have the exact load for that on my mind but I believe 42-44 grains of 4895 should be about right. While you may not be seeing pressure signs on your fired cases, I bet your primer pockets are getting loose.
Ive never seen an extractor fail on any semi auto, even a fal, that wasnt caused by either too hot ammo or an extremely dirty chamber ( buy a ratcheting chamber brush and use it by the way)

As far as re installing the extractor, its not that hard, I have clamped the bolt in between two blocks of wood in a vise, and along with a partner used a sharp punch to install the extractor. If you were closer to baton rouge Id take a look at if for you and check headspace. Other than that I dont know anyone in North LA that is familiar with Fals to recomend.

 

[MyTFAL]

Way too hot on that ammo. The problem with overpressure rounds is that the rise in pressure is not linear with the rise in velocity so while you are only 200 fps above normal velocity, I bet you are way over pressure. Also if your using LC brass its military brass, and is thicker than commercial, meaning you should reduce loads by at least one grain of published data. A good copy of nato ball ammo is 45-46 grains of Varget over a 150 -168 grain bullet, seated to mag length. 4895 is also a good powder for a fal, dont have the exact load for that on my mind but I believe 42-44 grains of 4895 should be about right. While you may not be seeing pressure signs on your fired cases, I bet your primer pockets are getting loose.
Ive never seen an extractor fail on any semi auto, even a fal, that wasnt caused by either too hot ammo or an extremely dirty chamber ( buy a ratcheting chamber brush and use it by the way)

As far as re installing the extractor, its not that hard, I have clamped the bolt in between two blocks of wood in a vise, and along with a partner used a sharp punch to install the extractor. If you were closer to baton rouge Id take a look at if for you and check headspace. Other than that I dont know anyone in North LA that is familiar with Fals to recomend.

Thats pretty much the point I was trying to make, not trying to insinuate anything on the OP just this FAL shot 300 rds of DAG(hot) 50 rds of assorted commercial .308 (also hot) then possibly as much as 200 rds of FA @ 2900 fps (very hot) I'm not really surprised the extractor blew.

Here is a easy to build extractor removal/install tool of my own design,hope helps.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252788

I'd take Akajun up on his offer, he's probably more knowledgeable than a gunsmith that doesn't deal with FAL's daily

 

[Jimbeaux82]

Thanks again for all of the advice and opinions. I thought that it might be the ammo as I knew it was on the hot side. Looks like that is the most likely possibility at this time.

Akajun - PM sent

Jimbeaux

 

[gunner_lee]

Jimbeaux, I'm in Pollock and have put together over 20 of them. I have gauges and we can order another extractor/spring/plunger if needed. If you still need someone to look at it PM me. I'm off the month of December and will be playing at home most of it. And my FAL mentor lives just south of here- if you and I can't fix it he can. I also have the bolt disassembly tool we'd need to put the extractor back in if you have all the parts. Lee

 

[SGT_Kramer]

Jimbeaux, I'm in Pollock and have put together over 20 of them. I have gauges and we can order another extractor/spring/plunger if needed. If you still need someone to look at it PM me. I'm off the month of December and will be playing at home most of it. And my FAL mentor lives just south of here- if you and I can't fix it he can. I also have the bolt disassembly tool we'd need to put the extractor back in if you have all the parts. Lee

I have one that I think the Timing may be alittle off on. It's shooting right beyond sight adjustment. I may have to bring it by when schedule permits.

 

[gunner_lee]

Kramer, put the rifle in a rest and take out the bolt/carrier/cover. Set a welding rod or straight metal rod/bar across the parallel flats of the upper receiver's top edges. Remove the handguards and put a rod through the handguard screw hole. They should be parallel when viewed from the back down the barrel. It the front rod is up left/up and right/down you're overtimed. Opposite for undertimed. Easily fixed. Lee