going to a gun fight with empty gun

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  • MOTOR51

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    So what’s the solution to this other than swapping out the ammo more frequently. I’ve always been taught that if you’re storing a shotgun cruiser ready to keep the magazine downloaded by one round. For example if it’s a 7 round tube only load 6 rounds into it.

    Unless I’m missing something it seems like that’s the only option. Unless of course you can find duty/department approved ammo with brass shells which I don’t think exist.

    I always kept mine loaded fully. I also would
    inspect it regularly for this reason and just because it’s a good idea. A lot of us kept them on the floor beside the drivers seat in the old crown Vic’s.


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    La26

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    Yea, they did good in the passenger compartment, however Dept regs required they be carried in the trunk. When you kept them in the trunk, that's when we ran into problems. In 1990/1991 we got black Chevy Caprices in the Tac Unit. They were all black with white markings. They ran like a scalded cat because they had Corvette engines in them, BUT being all black they were HOT. If you left your sunglasses in them, you couldn't put them on your face when you first got into the car. We carried our SWAT Equipt in the trunk, along with our shotguns, and MP-5s. I don't know for sure, but the temps had to reach well over 120 degrees in the trunk during the summer. Earlier units were Crown Vics, and later units were Crown Vics. They were white with blue markings, and a little more survivable in the summer. Trunks still got pretty hot though.
     
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    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Well, I might be the only one, but I’m starting to see a pattern here. Yeah, it’s Bayou Shooter and we don’t need much of anything just to argue that we can’t pull out of thin air, but that’s not it..
    I’m starting to see a pattern and if it’s how it looks I’d be alarmed.
    Let a shotgun ride in the trunk, untouched for how long? Same with an AR I’m seeing. A gunsmith friend told me about working on LEO duty weapons and how bad they usually look. He said most problems with side arms are getting knocked around or they’re just full of crud. Man I hope they’ll all take pause and be more diligent in tending to their firearms. I’m sure none of us here would let that slide at home. I realize that the daily grind gets mundane and people get complacent but that’s the wrong area to fall short.
    Just sayin
     

    Jstudz220

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    Well, I might be the only one, but I’m starting to see a pattern here. Yeah, it’s Bayou Shooter and we don’t need much of anything just to argue that we can’t pull out of thin air, but that’s not it..
    I’m starting to see a pattern and if it’s how it looks I’d be alarmed.
    Let a shotgun ride in the trunk, untouched for how long? Same with an AR I’m seeing. A gunsmith friend told me about working on LEO duty weapons and how bad they usually look. He said most problems with side arms are getting knocked around or they’re just full of crud. Man I hope they’ll all take pause and be more diligent in tending to their firearms. I’m sure none of us here would let that slide at home. I realize that the daily grind gets mundane and people get complacent but that’s the wrong area to fall short.
    Just sayin
    People tend to care less about weapons that aren’t their personal ones. When I was in the navy the m16s, m9’s, .50’s, and m240’s were used and abused. Luckily for us we had a department dedicated to maintenance and upkeep of them. When we would go to the range with our personal guns the same guys who abused the duty guns would baby their personal guns like you would t believe. Gently inserting magazines, not letting empty magazines hit the deck, and cleaning and lubing them as soon as they were done.

    Fwiw I was on an aircraft carrier and although we were deployed we weren’t exactly using them to directly defend our lives. Not many people are crazy enough to approach a battle wing cruising through the ocean with multiple navy ships filled with heavy ordnance and multiple birds ready to launch at a moments notice.

    As far as all the arguing goes I really think a lot of stuff is just lost in translation. It’s hard to read text sometimes and they can easily be taken the wrong way. We definitely have a few guys though that like to argue just to argue lol.
     

    DBMJR1

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    True, a 12 ga can be a devastating weapon, especially for CQB. But, that does bring up a question about how to carry the shotgun in the vehicle? Of course, no round in the chamber, but how many in the magazine (tubular)? There are drawbacks, especially in our climate. We found (NOPD) that after an extended time in the trunk of a Unit, where summer temps can get crispy, the plastic shells in the magazine tend to soften a bit. Compound this with extreme spring pressure pushing against them in a fully loaded tube magazine (5 rounds, or 7 in extended), the shells tended to swell to the point where they would not feed in the magazine. Being squished (technical term) end to end by the very strong spring and follower had negative effects on the unfired rounds. SO, when you exited the unit, grabbed you shotgun from the trunk and racked the slide, no shell got chambered because they were swollen and jammed in the magazine. That's when "transition to your sidearm" training comes into play again.
    Only saw it a time or two, fortunately only in training, but happening once in an "oh crap" situation could be a bad day for the good guys.
    Weapon maintenance, checking your ammo, and don't over load your mag could make the difference.
    This problem predates plastic hulls and happens to paper hulls as well. Especially with dampness.

    The Solution is Brass Shotshells. An old solution. Still works.
     

    Jstudz220

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    This problem predates plastic hulls and happens to paper hulls as well. Especially with dampness.

    The Solution is Brass Shotshells. An old solution. Still works.
    Right but who makes factory loaded brass shot shells that would be approved by a department for duty use? I’ve never see them other than obscure ones for reloading.
     

    DBMJR1

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    Right but who makes factory loaded brass shot shells that would be approved by a department for duty use? I’ve never see them other than obscure ones for reloading.
    Used to be, . . . Surplus 12ga 00 Buck was everywhere in those brass shells. WWII vintage.

    A quick interweb search shows nothing.

    Perhaps this is a market opportunity for a manufacturer. Doesn't matter how much they cost. Reloads can be standard ammunition.
     

    La26

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    The brass shells might be the best way to go. It's going to be difficult to find a brass 00 Buck load that patterns as well as the Federal with the Flite Control wad. When using those, all of the pellets will stay in the scoring area of a POST Qualification target at 25 yards. When using other brands, you can't even keep all of the pellets on the target. For LE, those pellets that are "off the target" are flying down the street, and we have to account for wherever they may land (or whomever they may hit). That's why in reply #37 I said it is a devastating weapon, for CQB. Anything past 15 or 20 yards, the Patrol Rifle would be my weapon of choice.
    We issue a patrol rifle (AR platform in 5.56) to every Deputy, and those that wish to carry a shotgun are issued those, too. SRT Deputies are issued SBR (5.56) with suppressors and red dot optics, and are cross-trained with the shotgun, but mainly it is intended to be used as a breaching weapon. Several are carried on the SRT equipt van, along with less-lethal (painted orange).
     

    Jstudz220

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    The shotgun is used in such a minute role that I don’t see any company investing the time to produce brass shells. Even if they did I can’t see them pattering as well as federal flight
    The brass shells might be the best way to go. It's going to be difficult to find a brass 00 Buck load that patterns as well as the Federal with the Flite Control wad. When using those, all of the pellets will stay in the scoring area of a POST Qualification target at 25 yards. When using other brands, you can't even keep all of the pellets on the target. For LE, those pellets that are "off the target" are flying down the street, and we have to account for wherever they may land (or whomever they may hit). That's why in reply #37 I said it is a devastating weapon, for CQB. Anything past 15 or 20 yards, the Patrol Rifle would be my weapon of choice.
    We issue a patrol rifle (AR platform in 5.56) to every Deputy, and those that wish to carry a shotgun are issued those, too. SRT Deputies are issued SBR (5.56) with suppressors and red dot optics, and are cross-trained with the shotgun, but mainly it is intended to be used as a breaching weapon. Several are carried on the SRT equipt van, along with less-lethal (painted orange).
    hornady also makes a load that uses the same flight wad. I forget the name of it but in my experience even though it’s the exact same wad the federal le always patterned slightly better for me.
     

    Kraut

    LEO
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    4   0   0
    Oct 3, 2007
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    Our policy for long guns is loaded but empty chamber on safe when locked in vehicle. If I grab one or the other, the go-bag goes with me with extra mags and shells.

    Slings are recommended but not supplied by our agency. They will allow stock changes on their shotguns and addition of a side saddle and installation of preferred sling attachments.

    Oddly, although a MOLLE vest is approved for daily wear, a rifle mag pouch is not allowed to be worn on it by Patrol officers. A few habitually carry a rifle mag on their belt.

    I'm glad that the one officer was cognizant enough of what was going on that he did not shoot that officer in the back of his grape.
     

    AdvancedLaser

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    0   0   0
    Feb 15, 2021
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    The brass shells might be the best way to go. It's going to be difficult to find a brass 00 Buck load that patterns as well as the Federal with the Flite Control wad. When using those, all of the pellets will stay in the scoring area of a POST Qualification target at 25 yards. When using other brands, you can't even keep all of the pellets on the target. For LE, those pellets that are "off the target" are flying down the street, and we have to account for wherever they may land (or whomever they may hit). That's why in reply #37 I said it is a devastating weapon, for CQB. Anything past 15 or 20 yards, the Patrol Rifle would be my weapon of choice.
    We issue a patrol rifle (AR platform in 5.56) to every Deputy, and those that wish to carry a shotgun are issued those, too. SRT Deputies are issued SBR (5.56) with suppressors and red dot optics, and are cross-trained with the shotgun, but mainly it is intended to be used as a breaching weapon. Several are carried on the SRT equipt van, along with less-lethal (painted orange).
    Vang Comp barrels fix the grouping issue. They are impressive.
     

    La26

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    Vang Comp barrels fix the grouping issue. They are impressive.
    I have one for my 870. Vang had some ready to go barrels already back-bored with his choke system, with rifle sights for $165. I bought one along with extended mag with breaching stand-off device for SRT. It keeps all the 00 pellets in the 2 point zone even at 25 yards. Vang is the master when it comes to perfecting the shotgun. Top quality items for the combat shotgun.
     
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    Abby Normal

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    This problem predates plastic hulls and happens to paper hulls as well. Especially with dampness.

    The Solution is Brass Shotshells. An old solution. Still works.
    I was guessing that a higher temp plastic would work cheaper than brass. And of course it could be sold as a LEO/ G2G round & charge more.
     

    Core

    Salt
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    one is way safer. motor51 answered your suggestion. A pothole, or simply bump the bolt release and not realize it. why do you zealots emphasize/stress cops should store their AR-15 in condition 1, or the bolt locked back?

    It takes all of a second to work the CH and chamber a round. maybe a half second for a well trained officer.
    I don't like your tone: I can't tell if you are a troll or being humorous? You get an average of two seconds to IFF in a gun fight, there is no reason why you cannot carry an AR chambered with the safety on. We did it that way in the military, in vehicles no less. It's just as daft as carrying a pistol or revolver with no cartridges in the chamber/cyl while on duty. No reason to not chamber a round whatsoever on duty. A good deal of gun fights exist on video and fumbling to chamber a round has probably killed many a soul. And speaking form experience, everything is harder when you believe your life is in peril. You truly fall back on your training.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    I don't like your tone: I can't tell if you are a troll or being humorous? You get an average of two seconds to IFF in a gun fight, there is no reason why you cannot carry an AR chambered with the safety on. We did it that way in the military, in vehicles no less. It's just as daft as carrying a pistol or revolver with no cartridges in the chamber/cyl while on duty. No reason to not chamber a round whatsoever on duty. A good deal of gun fights exist on video and fumbling to chamber a round has probably killed many a soul. And speaking form experience, everything is harder when you believe your life is in peril. You truly fall back on your training.
    When I hear someone say that it only takes a second to chamber a round I think about how many rounds I could pump into a target in the DIFFERENCE in time it actually takes to flip a safety and fire and to actually chamber the round, grab the trigger, aquire the target and fire. I’m pretty sure it’s 3 to 20…or 30, depending on mag capacity and when I feel like the target is done.
    Policy is policy. What I’ve learned about policy over the years is that it only matters when it matters. If you carry condition one against policy and you have an unplanned discharge it will matter. When being the faster more ready victor in a 2 second firefight, I’m pretty sure policy don’t matter so much. Wonder how much policy matters when you take a couple of rounds while charging your weapon…which I’m sure could never happen. (Insert roll eyes emoji here)
    Policy is that thing that implies certain things happen or don’t. It’s that nod when you’re saying no. Policy is for the record. Policy is not law, it’s policy.
     
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    KDerekT83

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    It's company policy at my work to not have weapons on the property at all. My Glock, stays in my backpack on the floor behind counter at my feet, with backpack unzipped. My store manager knows it there. (I have a holster sewn into my backpack where it stays put and stays chambered.) Policies are only suggestions made to cover the agencies/companies butt legally if something goes south in my eyes.
     

    MOTOR51

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    When I hear someone say that it only takes a second to chamber a round I think about how many rounds I could pump into a target in the DIFFERENCE in time it actually takes to flip a safety and fire and to actually chamber the round, grab the trigger, aquire the target and fire. I’m pretty sure it’s 3 to 20…or 30, depending on mag capacity and when I feel like the target is done.
    Policy is policy. What I’ve learned about policy over the years is that it only matters when it matters. If you carry condition one against policy and you have an unplanned discharge it will matter. When being the faster more ready victor in a 2 second firefight, I’m pretty sure policy don’t matter so much. Wonder how much policy matters when you take a couple of rounds while charging your weapon…which I’m sure could never happen. (Insert roll eyes emoji here)
    Policy is that thing that implies certain things happen or don’t. It’s that nod when you’re saying no. Policy is for the record. Policy is not law, it’s policy.

    It’s because what your are trying to rationalize isn’t reality. All of your scenarios are unrealistic when it comes to the patrol rifle. Those patrol rifles are locked in gunlocks. There is no way that I’m fumbling with a gunlock button etc when I’m taking rounds. The patrol rifle comes out when you get on scene and need it or it’s made ready to go before you get to the scene if the call dictates the probability of needing a patrol rifle. Riding around with a round in the chamber doesn’t matter because if you are trying to get it unlocked when you are getting shot at then you are already dead.

    PS- Gone are the days of riding around with it unsecured on the passenger seat etc, police units are broken into all the time nowadays just for the weapons.


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    Jstudz220

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    It’s because what your are trying to rationalize isn’t reality. All of your scenarios are unrealistic when it comes to the patrol rifle. Those patrol rifles are locked in gunlocks. There is no way that I’m fumbling with a gunlock button etc when I’m taking rounds. The patrol rifle comes out when you get on scene and need it or it’s made ready to go before you get to the scene if the call dictates the probability of needing a patrol rifle. Riding around with a round in the chamber doesn’t matter because if you are trying to get it unlocked when you are getting shot at then you are already dead.
    PS- Gone are the days of riding around with it unsecured on the passenger seat etc, police units are broken into all the time nowadays just for the weapons.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    it’s like the equivalent of saying you need to keep every gun in your gun safe loaded and ready to go. It’s as simple as it’s not a primary weapon.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    I don't like your tone: I can't tell if you are a troll or being humorous? You get an average of two seconds to IFF in a gun fight, there is no reason why you cannot carry an AR chambered with the safety on. We did it that way in the military, in vehicles no less. It's just as daft as carrying a pistol or revolver with no cartridges in the chamber/cyl while on duty. No reason to not chamber a round whatsoever on duty. A good deal of gun fights exist on video and fumbling to chamber a round has probably killed many a soul. And speaking form experience, everything is harder when you believe your life is in peril. You truly fall back on your training.
    There are a few issues with your reply. Yes, we carried a round in the chamber in the military, even in a vehicle. But that was only out on patrol and we usually cleared the round when we got back in the wire. The rifles were not stored with a round in the chamber. And most of the time we had a rifle in the vehicle, the rifle was not mounted. And it wasn't left in a vehicle when we left the vehicle. We always took it with us. It was in our hands because it was our primary weapon. When we were in the wire, we were required to carry a magazine somewhere not in the magazine well. So most of the time, most of the soldiers were carrying their duty weapon unloaded with their magazine carried separately, a condition "worse" than how a number of leo's carry their "special purpose" weapon.
     

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