Gun Registration Discussion

[XD-GEM]

Look at Connecticut for an example. After the Sandy Hook murders, Connecticut passed a bunch of gun control laws, including registration. They expected to register millions of guns. Only a few thousand actually registered. The state found itself unable to do anything about it, and they have not tried to do anything about it either. It would take a huge army of fanatics to do the necessary investigative work to enable a large government response to such widespread flaunting of the law.

 

[thperez1972]

I could have saved you the trouble of all that quoted print there, it was his comment at the end I was answering, where he said ‘all this conspiracy theory stuff is comical’.
Comments like that don’t say, ‘I’d like to discuss that subject’ as much as they say, ‘you’re a conspiracy theorist’ or maybe even, ‘I don’t subscribe, nothing to discuss’ which makes me wonder (not really) why he would bother posting anything, but you go ahead and come running to Dave’s rescue if you must.
Do I value Dave’s opinion of what exactly? He didn’t exactly offer anything to the discussion in my opinion except to insult anyone who may consider such things. I guess one man’s trolling is another man’s discussion.

You do your fair share of trolling so there's no need for you to be hypocritical. And Dave doesn't need me to rescue him. He's capable of taking care of himself. Accusing me of such is just an attempt to not address your asking for a discussion then not wanting views that you don't like.

If I were really a conspiracy theorist, I’d say that somebody doesn’t want us discussing such things on this site.

You've accused me multiple time of not wanting you to post on here. So by your own words, are you a conspiracy theorist?

Lastly, as per the usual, you quote my post but don’t really read it.
You just roll with it like you want, whatever fits your narrative.
You brought up the 80% (lower/pistol frame) you said list, I said I’m talking about things that apparently cause an agent to visit a person at their home. You also reply about that like what I said is not factual. Like someone did not legally purchase a legal to own item and have the ATF show up at their home like I said. I’m talking about something that I don’t believe is ok. I’m thinking most law abiding gun owners don’t think it’s ok. But to bring it up in discussion here makes me a conspiracy theorist?
Let me try another direction. What’s your opinion on what the ATF is doing regarding 80% Buy/build/shoot kits? And their actions regarding pistol braces? Do you support their posture on these items and their actions toward law abiding gun owners who’ve purchased said products? Is there not some way we can discuss what’s occurring in real time without somebody throwing the conspiracy theory card? Do you think that’s truly discussing a subject? Do you think that a member that goes straight to ‘conspiracy theory’ talk truly wants to discuss or is making an attempt to shut down discussion. I’ll be glad to hear Dave’s explanation.

I read your post. Perhaps you should read my reply again. I never said anything you said was not factual. I said that what you said supports the idea that the feds don't currently have a list. They asked (through subpoena) for the list. I guess the feds could have gone through the trouble to ask for a list they already had to avoid divulging that they did have a list. But if they're going to do that when they need a list of names, what good is keeping a list at all?

As far as my opinion, I am against the feds asking for a list of citizens who have legally purchased a legal product. I am against the feds "redefining" an item to make it illegal. And I believe it's not up to any user here to define the way another member must discuss topics.

Of course anyone can disagree about the feds wanting to take your guns, but it would be a pretty empty argument when they’re proudly proclaiming that very fact for all to see.

So someone made an empty argument by proudly proclaiming they disagree about the feds wanting to take your guns?

 

[thperez1972]

So anyway, back to the discussion if there’s anyone who might like to discuss the possibility of a future gun registration of any sort.
I’m wondering how many owners of pistol braces were actually intending to go ahead and register their AR pistol as a SBR when it appeared to be on the table. Anyone think the ATF picking up the tab seemed a little fishy? Did it give anyone pause? I wonder how many gun owners are ok with that. If we can’t discuss the possibilities here of all places I think we’re worse off than people think. How in hades will anyone ever come together when it really counts if all we do is bicker about whether or not the threat is real or simply decide there’s nothing that we can do about something so we might as well get used to it?
Any chance we could just try it on for a bit without all the chicken little finger pointing crap taking place? Or is that considered discussion as well?

Let's assume there isn't currently a comprehensive list of all gun owners. If so, any gun registration discussion is moot.

There currently exists a gun registration. All NFA items and their owners are on the list. If a gun registration list is used to determine what houses the feds are going to visit, I'm already on the list. From the perspective of simply being on the list, there's no reason for me to not SBR a lower. "You're on the list but the feds only know about the weapons that are on the list. They don't know about all of your weapons" Yes, but by that logic, as long as I don't SBR every weapon I have, that fact will not change. The process of installing a brace is much easier than the process of SBR'ing a weapon. If it were the opposite, I'd already have more SBR's. And even with the existence of braces, I have a couple of builds I've considered SBR'ing. Given that and if the feds make it quick and free, why would I not go ahead and register an AR pistol as an SBR? How does making it cheap and free all of a sudden make it bad to do what I might have already otherwise done? Granted, I may SBR more than I might have previously SBR'd but how is registering 2 alright but registering 4 so terrible?

So, given the unarguable fact that there already exists a gun registration of some sort, is adding an item to that list at no cost any worse than adding it to the list when there's a $200 price tag?

 

[JCcypress]

I am on other forums/pages for conventional firearms, hunting, training, NFA stuff, chicken-rearing, woodworking, real estate, investing, legal discussion, D-I-Y, and more, and this is the most dysfunctional of them all by far. That's not to say there aren't the occasional quips and snide remarks made in other forums, but generally they just get ignored.

Dudes here hate each other so much that any statement they read from the other is assumed to be an attack and someone always wants the last word. Inflection and tone are often lost on the internet, so stop assuming the worst about each other.

Newsflash: no one here cares about who got the last word and you just end up sounding like a douchebag. Correcting misinformation is fine. Provide your source. Opposing opinions are fine. State yours and move on. Bickering like tween girls on the playground is exhausting to read and brings to whole place down.

Yall are grown ass men. Don't be a dick. Merry Christmas!

 

[Magdump]

Look at Connecticut for an example. After the Sandy Hook murders, Connecticut passed a bunch of gun control laws, including registration. They expected to register millions of guns. Only a few thousand actually registered. The state found itself unable to do anything about it, and they have not tried to do anything about it either. It would take a huge army of fanatics to do the necessary investigative work to enable a large government response to such widespread flaunting of the law.

So following that logic, I wonder if it’s possible the ATF is simply posturing or using some sort of reverse psychology in hopes of coaxing people into accepting another option such as a registration or who knows what. Sadly I don’t keep up with all the changes in other states but I know there have been some crazy laws passed in some cities and states that turn people into criminals overnight. In the long run, even if those governments simply rely on sheriff dept and other police agencies to do their bidding as they catch those breaking those laws over time they’ve still done plenty of damage.

 

[Magdump]

I am on other forums/pages for conventional firearms, hunting, training, NFA stuff, chicken-rearing, woodworking, real estate, investing, legal discussion, D-I-Y, and more, and this is the most dysfunctional of them all by far. That's not to say there aren't the occasional quips and snide remarks made in other forums, but generally they just get ignored.

Dudes here hate each other so much that any statement they read from the other is assumed to be an attack and someone always wants the last word. Inflection and tone are often lost on the internet, so stop assuming the worst about each other.

Newsflash: no one here cares about who got the last word and you just end up sounding like a douchebag. Correcting misinformation is fine. Provide your source. Opposing opinions are fine. State yours and move on. Bickering like tween girls on the playground is exhausting to read and brings to whole place down.

Yall are grown ass men. Don't be a dick. Merry Christmas!

Wisest post I’ve seen in a great while. I concur. And I’ll take the advice.

 

[Jstudz220]

So following that logic, I wonder if it’s possible the ATF is simply posturing or using some sort of reverse psychology in hopes of coaxing people into accepting another option such as a registration or who knows what. Sadly I don’t keep up with all the changes in other states but I know there have been some crazy laws passed in some cities and states that turn people into criminals overnight. In the long run, even if those governments simply rely on sheriff dept and other police agencies to do their bidding as they catch those breaking those laws over time they’ve still done plenty of damage.

imo that’s exactly what they are doing. They want to change laws that are currently in place and try to pursued people by offering to drop the $200 fee. I’d much rather pay the $200 and keep my freedoms they way they are opposed to saving $200 or even let’s say $1,000 and loosing a liberty.

 

[Jstudz220]

I’m not sure how much truth their is to this but I’ve heard it a couple of times now from sources I consider to be reliable. From what I’ve heard the atf has been taking cell phone pictures of form 4473’s and entering them into a digital data base to make searches much quicker and convenient. I’ve heard this now from one local FFL as well as a couple of YouTube sources so again I’m not sure how much truth is behind this. Maybe someone with a FFL or who works at a gun shop can chime in here and let me know is this is something they have witnessed or not.

 

[ozarkpugs]

I am on other forums/pages for conventional firearms, hunting, training, NFA stuff, chicken-rearing, woodworking, real estate, investing, legal discussion, D-I-Y, and more, and this is the most dysfunctional of them all by far. That's not to say there aren't the occasional quips and snide remarks made in other forums, but generally they just get ignored.

Dudes here hate each other so much that any statement they read from the other is assumed to be an attack and someone always wants the last word. Inflection and tone are often lost on the internet, so stop assuming the worst about each other.

Newsflash: no one here cares about who got the last word and you just end up sounding like a douchebag. Correcting misinformation is fine. Provide your source. Opposing opinions are fine. State yours and move on. Bickering like tween girls on the playground is exhausting to read and brings to whole place down.

Yall are grown ass men. Don't be a dick. Merry Christmas!

Ar-15 armory. com comes close but I agree this site is bad .

Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

 

[Magdump]

I’m not sure how much truth their is to this but I’ve heard it a couple of times now from sources I consider to be reliable. From what I’ve heard the atf has been taking cell phone pictures of form 4473’s and entering them into a digital data base to make searches much quicker and convenient. I’ve heard this now from one local FFL as well as a couple of YouTube sources so again I’m not sure how much truth is behind this. Maybe someone with a FFL or who works at a gun shop can chime in here and let me know is this is something they have witnessed or not.

I’ve heard it pondered whether or not that was the express reason for the change in the 4473 forms, but have not heard any eye witness account of that happening. Plenty of second hand accounts of copying forms over the years tho.

 

[ozarkpugs]

Remember a few years back the ATF and social security administration teamed up and requested the states turn over the name and address of all concealed carry permit holders . There reason was so when the red flag law was in they could cross reference and know how many of them were getting social security or disability or even mental health card through the as administration .
As far as I know Mo. Is the only state that put a stop to it . The state legislature took the concealed carry information from the state police and gave it to the Sherrifs department and blocked the state police and federal government from getting the information .
How many states complied and sends them the information . What did the ATF do with the information on those who are not receiving any mental health help ?


Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

 

[thperez1972]

imo that’s exactly what they are doing. They want to change laws that are currently in place and try to pursued people by offering to drop the $200 fee. I’d much rather pay the $200 and keep my freedoms they way they are opposed to saving $200 or even let’s say $1,000 and loosing a liberty.

Let's take my situation as an example because I know I'm not the only one with that situation. I have a number of NFA items. I am on the list. I've considered SBR'ing at least one and maybe two more lowers. If the ATF makes it free, even for a short window of time, why would I not SBR 3 or 4 more lowers?

I don't know of anyone who believes a free SBR permit is a good reason to change the law and outlaw braces.

I’m not sure how much truth their is to this but I’ve heard it a couple of times now from sources I consider to be reliable. From what I’ve heard the atf has been taking cell phone pictures of form 4473’s and entering them into a digital data base to make searches much quicker and convenient. I’ve heard this now from one local FFL as well as a couple of YouTube sources so again I’m not sure how much truth is behind this. Maybe someone with a FFL or who works at a gun shop can chime in here and let me know is this is something they have witnessed or not.

Did your sources explain how the ATF could get that done? According to the ATF there were 139,840 FFL's in the US in 2016. 383 FFL's would need to be visited every day, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, to catch them all. 15.7 million guns were sold in 2016. You would need to take 181 pictures a second to take 15.7 million pictures over the course of a year. That's a lot of people doing a lot of work for an operation that seems to be under the table. I would imagine an operation of that size, and the logistics needed to complete it, would be tough to keep quiet.

 

[jbanks2]

If you deposit $3,500 in the bank they type in where the money came from.
If you deposit $10,000 or more they fill out an additional form.

It is called a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report). It no longer depends on the amount of the deposit... if any bank teller suspects suspicious activity the report is filled out. Staggering deposits, depositing into someone else's account, cash deposits larger than direct deposits not coming from an employer, etc... all trigger a SAR.

I know... I'm a banker...

 

[oleheat]

I like the "lets win back The House in 2022 and investigate their asses" idea better. It's clear they have too much time on their hands- which usually translates into too much funding, also....

 

[Magdump]

I like the "lets win back The House in 2022 and investigate their asses" idea better. It's clear they have too much time on their hands- which usually translates into too much funding, also....

I’m down with that.

 

[Core]

NICS has your FFL transfers databased. If a police officer runs you they give them all your FFL transfers in the US. Not exactly sure who funds the database? This is worth investigating and defunding it if its tax funded or citing an incorporated violation of privacy if its privately funded. I would not have a problem with it however it will be abused by tyrants so its probably best to get rid of the database. Maybe a top cop can elaborate?

The FBI/ATF has probably already obtained any purchase data manufacturers have, so this highlights the need for manufacturers to
destroy confidential purchase data every thirty days or so. Or just not log data period and ensure electronic purchases cite only name, address, and order number, while keeping temporary record of specifics on their end for thirty days or until the customer requests deletion. This would not effect defective returns given warranties are drafted to work with this system like a forever warranty or a 30 day return and defect warranty period. Customers keep the receipt.

Gun registration is highly unconstitutional. Its a violation of 2A and subsequently a number of others. California is an example of a State in massive Article VI violation of numerous Bill of Rights And Articles for millions of citizens and a number of other states. Its a matter of fact that Democrats spear head this Article VI violation knowingly and openly, and this warrants their powers defunded, disbarred, and discharged per Article VI. By any means. It also renders said laws, regulations, etc. moot. Any officer enforcing these unconstitutional laws is in violation of his/her oath.

The idea that Article VI allows states powers to violate the Bill of Rights is absurd and a fantasy. Apologies for poor grammar Im thumb typing..

Sic Semper Tyrannis!

 

[thperez1972]

NICS has your FFL transfers databased. If a police officer runs you they give them all your FFL transfers in the US. Not exactly sure who funds the database? This is worth investigating and defunding it if its tax funded or citing an incorporated violation of privacy if its privately funded. I would not have a problem with it however it will be abused by tyrants so its probably best to get rid of the database. Maybe a top cop can elaborate?

This is simply not true. I run people through the database all the time, both Louisiana and III, and FFL transfers don't show up, just their arrest records.

 

[DAVE_M]

NICS has your FFL transfers databased. If a police officer runs you they give them all your FFL transfers in the US.

Are you implying that all FFL's digitally store 4473's?

 

[Magdump]

.....Gun registration is highly unconstitutional. Its a violation of 2A and subsequently a number of others. California is an example of a State in massive Article VI violation of numerous Bill of Rights And Articles for millions of citizens and a number of other states. Its a matter of fact that Democrats spear head this Article VI violation knowingly and openly, and this warrants their powers defunded, disbarred, and discharged per Article VI. By any means. It also renders said laws, regulations, etc. moot. Any officer enforcing these unconstitutional laws is in violation of his/her oath.

The idea that Article VI allows states powers to violate the Bill of Rights is absurd and a fantasy. Apologies for poor grammar Im thumb typing..

Sic Semper Tyrannis!

Spot on sir

 

[XD-GEM]

This is simply not true. I run people through the database all the time, both Louisiana and III, and FFL transfers don't show up, just their arrest records.

And arrest records can be faulty. When I went to Mississippi to retrieve the gun that my brother killed himself with, the detective ran me through the system. It came back with a LONG list of arrests and convictions - none of which were mine. The detective sat there laughing at it because he was holding my LA CHP. It took us awhile, but we were able to fix the database.

I'm just glad that I never got pulled over in Mississippi before this.

There's simply too much data already in the system for it to be as useful as some people think it should be. It suffers from information overload. Adding legally dubious photos of 4473s would only complicate things more.