Training Today

[Jlong1691]

With the current ammo situation, has anyone considered using airsoft pistols to stay on top of your pistol game? Most namely GBB Pistols so there is some recoil, and report.

If so, please let me know what equipment you use specifically, and how well it performs for you. I recently ordered this pistol to supplement my shooting, and if anyone would like to know how it performs, it should arrive on Saturday. It was a pre order, so I have been waiting on it for weeks. Looks like they have sold this shipment out, because the updated pre order status says March now. If you want one there may be a wait. All reviews I have found so far are good.
https://us.novritsch.com/products/ssp18-system/



Before the Err Meh Gerd people join in, I am not advocating using this as a replacement for live fire. It is more for pistol trigger work and proficiency, that cannot be had with any feedback by dry fire. I simply cannot find adequate supply nor can I afford to shoot even 500 rounds a month right now, and this was a likely alternative for me.

 

[JBP55]

Simunition® is the pioneer and world leader in providing military, law enforcement and approved range members with the most realistic and non-lethal force-on-force, short range, simulation training system. For the past 15 years, military and police officers around the world have placed their trust in Simunition® to deliver realistic training. Professionals whose lives depend on the best training possible know that they can always count on Simunition® FX® marking cartridges and SecuriBlank® cartridges to provide them with the most effective close range, reality-based training system.

Simunition® has raised the bar again by introducing a completely non-toxic Toxfree® primer as an option to all its training rounds. The FX® system is comprised of FX® marking munitions, weapon conversion kits and personal protective equipment. All three essential components are supported by a comprehensive Simunition® Scenario and Safety Certification Training Course.

 

[DAVE_M]

I purchased one of the Glock licensed airsoft pistols made by Umarex last year. There are multiple versions, some CO2 powered and some Green Gas. I bought the full blowback model, but there are also some half blow back models to conserve gas. Magazines can be loaded up to actual capacity (and then some). I've shot it at ten yards and it's accurate enough for what it is, you're not going to be shooting 25 yd bulls with it though.

It has about as much recoil as a subsonic .22lr. The slide doesn't way much so that's to be expected. Due to the magazine and CO2 cartridge, it has some heft to it, so that's a plus. There are a few downsides though, which make this a less than ideal choice. First, the frame is not identical to a real Glock frame. It's much wider, including the rail. It does not fit in ANY kydex holsters that I own. The second major issue is that the rail is larger than a Glock rail. You can see that the X300U will not completely close and does not allow for the light to fit in light bearing holsters. The slide does lock back on empty, but it's not as user friendly as a live firearm. Dropping the slide with the slide stop doesn't have enough spring power and sometimes binds up. Even if you slingshot the slide, it barely has enough spring power to go into battery. I would try to find a Green Gas Tokyo Marui Glock, which is technically unlicensed, but those DO actually fit in Glock holsters.

Some of the pros to it are that it is fairly accurate and works well for drills from low ready. There are a number of aftermarket parts for it, since it's a licensed product and Airsofters like to modify their guns. I'm still looking for one of the RDS adapters to see if I can mount a cheap dot.

 

[DAVE_M]

Simunition® is the pioneer and world leader in providing military, law enforcement and approved range members with the most realistic and non-lethal force-on-force, short range, simulation training system. For the past 15 years, military and police officers around the world have placed their trust in Simunition® to deliver realistic training. Professionals whose lives depend on the best training possible know that they can always count on Simunition® FX® marking cartridges and SecuriBlank® cartridges to provide them with the most effective close range, reality-based training system.

Simunition® has raised the bar again by introducing a completely non-toxic Toxfree® primer as an option to all its training rounds. The FX® system is comprised of FX® marking munitions, weapon conversion kits and personal protective equipment. All three essential components are supported by a comprehensive Simunition® Scenario and Safety Certification Training Course.

Does Simunition or UTM even sell to civilians?
Even then, can a civilian purchase a Glock 17T?

You're also looking at $500+ for a 17T to shoot sims.

At the end of the day, I don't know of many Joe Blow Regular Dudes that can't afford ammo, but can afford a Sim gun and Simunition or UTM's.

 

[Magdump]

I say screw the Err meh Gerd poleeces and go Nerf guns if it works for you. Who are they anyway? Nobodies inportantz.
My preference has always been the .22LR but I could make airsoft work for me. Lord knows I spent enough time shooting guys with paintballs years ago. Anyone who thinks that doesn’t help your skill set is welcome to come out to my woods and take part in a few friendly matches. We should test the waters for something of that nature in the area.

 

[DAVE_M]

Lord knows I spent enough time shooting guys with paintballs years ago. Anyone who thinks that doesn’t help your skill set is welcome to come out to my woods and take part in a few friendly matches. We should test the waters for something of that nature in the area.

I played Paintball competitively for roughly a decade. I've been around the country playing in CFOA and PSP events. The last event I played was PSP World Cup in 2008 playing D5 5-man. Prior to that, I played D3 Xball. Played D3 and D4 5man in CFOA. I have been to and played with and for teams at the majority of paintball fields around New Orleans and Baton Rouge. I can say with absolute certainty that playing any form of paintball (woodsball or airball) does absolutely nothing for one's abilities to shoot a firearm well. There are a few people on this forum that I played with that can vouch for this.

 

[SpeedRacer]

I purchased one of the Glock licensed airsoft pistols made by Umarex last year. There are multiple versions, some CO2 powered and some Green Gas. I bought the full blowback model, but there are also some half blow back models to conserve gas. Magazines can be loaded up to actual capacity (and then some). I've shot it at ten yards and it's accurate enough for what it is, you're not going to be shooting 25 yd bulls with it though.

It has about as much recoil as a subsonic .22lr. The slide doesn't way much so that's to be expected. Due to the magazine and CO2 cartridge, it has some heft to it, so that's a plus. There are a few downsides though, which make this a less than ideal choice. First, the frame is not identical to a real Glock frame. It's much wider, including the rail. It does not fit in ANY kydex holsters that I own. The second major issue is that the rail is larger than a Glock rail. You can see that the X300U will not completely close and does not allow for the light to fit in light bearing holsters. The slide does lock back on empty, but it's not as user friendly as a live firearm. Dropping the slide with the slide stop doesn't have enough spring power and sometimes binds up. Even if you slingshot the slide, it barely has enough spring power to go into battery. I would try to find a Green Gas Tokyo Marui Glock, which is technically unlicensed, but those DO actually fit in Glock holsters.

Some of the pros to it are that it is fairly accurate and works well for drills from low ready. There are a number of aftermarket parts for it, since it's a licensed product and Airsofters like to modify their guns. I'm still looking for one of the RDS adapters to see if I can mount a cheap dot.

I got the same one (mainly to play airsoft with the kid), but did immediately see some benefit for training. Pretty fun being able to shoot in the garage, and I’d say it’s as beneficial if not more so than dry fire. I had the same disappointment though, really thought it would fit Glock holsters but it doesn’t. Super lame and really limits the training benefit.


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[DAVE_M]

I got the same one (mainly to play airsoft with the kid), but did immediately see some benefit for training. Pretty fun being able to shoot in the garage, and I’d say it’s as beneficial if not more so than dry fire. I had the same disappointment though, really thought it would fit Glock holsters but it doesn’t. Super lame and really limits the training benefit.

Did you try it in any ALS holsters?

I figured worst case it might fit a GLS.

 

[JBP55]

Does Simunition or UTM even sell to civilians?
Even then, can a civilian purchase a Glock 17T?

You're also looking at $500+ for a 17T to shoot sims.

At the end of the day, I don't know of many Joe Blow Regular Dudes that can't afford ammo, but can afford a Sim gun and Simunition or UTM's.

Some LEA's train Church Security Teams and use Sims Pistols. I have a current invitation to a class but I am old and disabled and unable to take another class.

 

[DAVE_M]

Some LEA's train Church Security Teams and use Sims Pistols. I have a current invitation to a class but I am old and disabled and unable to take another class.

There are ranges that do the same, such as FRC, but I think the OP is looking for something an individual can use to supplement dry fire.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Did you try it in any ALS holsters?

I figured worst case it might fit a GLS.

Yep. No bueno.

Maybe, I may see if we have any at the shop to test.


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[pntbllr228]

I played Paintball competitively for roughly a decade. I've been around the country playing in CFOA and PSP events. The last event I played was PSP World Cup in 2008 playing D5 5-man. Prior to that, I played D3 Xball. Played D3 and D4 5man in CFOA. I have been to and played with and for teams at the majority of paintball fields around New Orleans and Baton Rouge. I can say with absolute certainty that playing any form of paintball (woodsball or airball) does absolutely nothing for one's abilities to shoot a firearm well. There are a few people on this forum that I played with that can vouch for this.

I’d argue vehemently against that point. The ability to shoot ambidextrously, switching the gun quickly from shoulder to shoulder, shooting on the move, shooting from cover, shooting under stress, trigger speed, control, weapons manipulation, etc are all improved by paintball trigger time. On top of all of that, point and shoot accuracy is greatly increased. Shooting hundreds of thousands of paintballs, mostly under stress, at moving targets, targets with very little exposure, while moving, is 100% valuable to me as a shooter. Maybe some people didn’t get much from it, just as most people don’t get much from actually shooting guns, but to make a blanket statement that it doesn’t do anything is ****in retarded.

Case in point. I’m right handed, left eye dominant. I was attending magpul dynamic carbine one, maybe 10 years ago. Chris walked by and was confused at the way I was shooting with my neck craned over to see through my optic clearly. He told me he thought I should switch to shooting my carbine lefty - and right then and there I became a left handed carbine shooter.

When I first started shooting at the Baker range on Wednesday nights with Lloyd Landry and the gang, I would unintentionally switch to my requisite hand when shooting out of either the left or right side of a barricade, because I was playing a lot of tournament paintball at the time.

I can shoot both pretty well, but I do consider myself a lefty now. Find a person who hasn’t done that for years with a paintball gun and ask them to do the same.

 

[DAVE_M]

I’d argue vehemently against that point. The ability to shoot ambidextrously, switching the gun quickly from shoulder to shoulder, shooting on the move, shooting from cover, shooting under stress, trigger speed, control, weapons manipulation, etc are all improved by paintball trigger time.

Shooting ambidextrously and moving the gun shoulder to shoulder is applicable for rifles, but it's rare you will be shooting a pistol in your non-dominant hand with a two handed grip. WHO shooting is important, but paintball does not prepare you for WHO pistol shooting.

On top of all of that, point and shoot accuracy is greatly increased.

Point shooting is 1980's nonsense. I will agree that point shooting in paintball absolutely reinforces bad habits with firearms.

Shooting hundreds of thousands of paintballs, mostly under stress, at moving targets, targets with very little exposure, while moving, is 100% valuable to me as a shooter.

I will agree that footwork has somewhat translated, but it's hardly the same. Shooting A zones at distance while moving is much more difficult than shooting paintball marker at 10-15 bps hoping you nick a piece of the opposing player.

Maybe some people didn’t get much from it, just as most people don’t get much from actually shooting guns, but to make a blanket statement that it doesn’t do anything is ****in retarded.

I stand by my statement. Are you saying paintball players can outshoot GM's? Master class? A class? B class? C class? D class? Pick one. Hand a paintball player a pistol and ask them to pass a 10-10-10 drill.

Case in point. I’m right handed, left eye dominant. I was attending magpul dynamic carbine one, maybe 10 years ago. Chris walked by and was confused at the way I was shooting with my neck craned over to see through my optic clearly. He told me he thought I should switch to shooting my carbine lefty - and right then and there I became a left handed carbine shooter.

That's a prime example of an eye dominance issue that proves you must shoot a firearm differently than a paintball marker.

Find a person who hasn’t done that for years with a paintball gun and ask them to do the same.

People with eye dominance issues that train regularly with firearms will have their techniques. You're touching on a lot of carbine work, but disregarding pistol shooting.

I didn't learn to shoot how I do, because I played paintball.

To add, Magdump is talking about woodsball, not tournament paintball. We all know how that goes.

 

[DAVE_M]

Yep. No bueno.

Maybe, I may see if we have any at the shop to test.


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Worst case, I'll see if I can get with Will Silk and block out a G17 mold to make it thicker. If I have one made I'll get an extra for you.

 

[southerncanuck]

It is more for pistol trigger work and proficiency, that cannot be had with any feedback by dry fire.

What does the felt recoil from a live round have to do with trigger work and pistol proficiency?

 

[pntbllr228]

Shooting ambidextrously and moving the gun shoulder to shoulder is applicable for rifles, but it's rare you will be shooting a pistol in your non-dominant hand with a two handed grip. WHO shooting is important, but paintball does not prepare you for WHO pistol shooting.

Yes it does. It forces you to become ambidextrous. To say otherwise is nonsense.


Point shooting is 1980's nonsense. I will agree that point shooting in paintball absolutely reinforces bad habits with firearms.

I’m not speaking of point shooting as you are. I’m talking about shooting without looking at your sights, which is something you can very easily do at close ranges and will be often necessary because things will prevent you from getting a clear sight picture. I’ve had multiple trainers tape up sights as an example that with proper grip, extension, etc you can still make accurate hits without sights.



I will agree that footwork has somewhat translated, but it's hardly the same. Shooting A zones at distance while moving is much more difficult than shooting paintball marker at 10-15 bps hoping you nick a piece of the opposing player.

Did I say they were the same? Shooting while moving in paintball, is better than not shooting while moving. This is an asinine argument.



I stand by my statement. Are you saying paintball players can outshoot GM's? Master class? A class? B class? C class? D class? Pick one. Hand a paintball player a pistol and ask them to pass a 10-10-10 drill.

No. That’s also ridiculous. You argue like a liberal college kid. I said no such thing. What I said is it gives you an advantage over not having done it.

Being very proficient at ANYTHING gives you the ability to be better at ANYTHING. If you ask an incredible basketball player who has practices dribbling and shooting basketball for years with discipline to pick up a gun, will they be good? No. But I’d rather train someone that knows how to get good at something than someone who doesn’t.

Factor into that the point that paintball literally involves shooting, and it’s a no brainer. I’m not saying that anyone that plays paintball is a ****in grand master shooter, but to say it doesn’t help because it didn’t do **** for you is dumb.

That's a prime example of an eye dominance issue that proves you must shoot a firearm differently than a paintball marker.

Which has nothing to do with my point. Again, I said that the skills learned and developed by being a good paintball player help with your ability to be a good shooter. I never said the mechanics are exactly the same.

You did miss the point that most shooters if asked to switch dominant hands would have a lot of difficulty, and because of my background, it was an easy transition.



People with eye dominance issues that train regularly with firearms will have their techniques. You're touching on a lot of carbine work, but disregarding pistol shooting.

I didn't learn to shoot how I do, because I played paintball.

And once again, I never said I learned to shoot from paintball. I said that many of the skills learned in paintball do directly translate to shooting boom boom guns. I’ve done a lot of both for a long time, and I know that paintball has helped me to become a better shooter.

To add, Magdump is talking about woodsball, not tournament paintball. We all know how that goes.

To add, you should read *The Killing School*. A pretty formidable US sniper credits playing sneaking around playing paintball as a kid to helping him as a sniper. So maybe woodsball isn’t great for teaching people to be great pistol shooters or even carbine shooters, but in forcing people to shoot under pressure, since real combat isn’t available for the average person, it’s hard to replicate the adrenaline of playing paintball.

 

[DAVE_M]

Playing paintball for years did nothing for me as a shooter. Taking what I’ve learned in classes and from better shooters, then applying it in practice, is what helped me become a better shooter.

Call it dumb. Call me names. It doesn’t help your case when you can’t have a civil discussion.

 

[Magdump]

I’d argue vehemently against that point. The ability to shoot ambidextrously, switching the gun quickly from shoulder to shoulder, shooting on the move, shooting from cover, shooting under stress, trigger speed, control, weapons manipulation, etc are all improved by paintball trigger time. On top of all of that, point and shoot accuracy is greatly increased. Shooting hundreds of thousands of paintballs, mostly under stress, at moving targets, targets with very little exposure, while moving, is 100% valuable to me as a shooter. Maybe some people didn’t get much from it, just as most people don’t get much from actually shooting guns, but to make a blanket statement that it doesn’t do anything is ****in retarded.

I agree. Since Dave was obviously referring to my comment on paintball I’ll chime in. It may not do anything for a particular person’s ability to ‘shoot a gun’ but that’s only a fraction of what any live action faux combat practice game skirmish whatever you may want to call it can contribute to your skill set. Dave would have a valid argument if he’d simply stated that it does nothing for his own ability to shoot a firearm instead of one’s ability. Also assuming one’s skill set is limited to the ability to shoot a firearm negates his statement. Shooting the firearm is just part of the big picture.
Having the ability to be put in a scenario where you’re going through all the motions of a firefight without the fear of killing someone or being killed can indeed be a plus. Simulation of any form can make a lot of difference in how you react during a real event. There are many forms of simulation. Even if it’s just to show how difficult it would be to make a shot when your couch potato ass just climbed a hill and ran 50 yards to escape being pelted.
Whether you’re toting a Tipton or an airsoft, a simulated firefight can offer much to one’s abilities.

 

[MOTOR51]

So Dave didn’t learn to shoot how he does by being a paintballer traveling the country.

Another paintballer learned mad skills from paintballing.

Magdump is just happy to play war games which include running up a hill.

Am I caught up now?


To the OP, if you can find a practice pistol that functions like your carry piece, and fits your holsters, that would be a great way to practice at home. If you can get into Sim guns like JBP suggested then I know for a fact you can use your holsters.


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[Magdump]

So Dave didn’t learn to shoot how he does by being a paintballer traveling the country.

Another paintballer learned mad skills from paintballing.

Magdump is just happy to play war games which include running up a hill.

Am I caught up now?


To the OP, if you can find a practice pistol that functions like your carry piece, and fits your holsters, that would be a great way to practice at home. If you can get into Sim guns like JBP suggested then I know for a fact you can use your holsters.


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Caught up? Not even close tater! Hahaha!

+1 on the practice pistol