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  • thatwhichisnt

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    A great piece written by the great Murray Rothbard.

    http://mises.org/daily/2585

    Here is a portion.

    So far in this book, we have developed a theory of liberty and property rights, and have outlined the legal code that would be necessary to defend those rights. What of government, the State? What is its proper role, if any?

    Most people, including most political theorists, believe that once one concedes the importance, or even the vital necessity, of some particular activity of the State — such as the provision of a legal code — that one has ipso facto conceded the necessity of the State itself.

    The State indeed performs many important and necessary functions: from provision of law to the supply of police and fire fighters, to building and maintaining the streets, to delivery of the mail. But this in no way demonstrates that only the State can perform such functions, or, indeed, that it performs them even passably well.

    Suppose, for example, that there are many competing cantaloupe stores in a particular neighborhood. One of the cantaloupe dealers, Smith, then uses violence to drive all of his competitors out of the neighborhood; he has thereby employed violence to establish a coerced monopoly over the sale of cantaloupes in a given territorial area.

    Does that mean that Smith's use of violence to establish and maintain his monopoly was essential to the provision of cantaloupes in the neighborhood? Certainly not, for there were existing competitors as well as potential rivals should Smith ever relax his use and threat of violence; moreover, economics demonstrates that Smith, as a coercive monopolist will tend to perform his service badly and inefficiently.

    Protected from competition by the use of force, Smith can afford to provide his service in a costly and inefficient manner, since the consumers are deprived of any possible range of alternative choice.[1] Furthermore, should a group arise to call for the abolition of Smith's coercive monopoly there would be very few protesters with the temerity to accuse these "abolitionists" of wishing to deprive the consumers of their much desired cantaloupes.

    And yet, the State is only our hypothetical Smith on a gigantic and all-encompassing scale. Throughout history groups of men calling themselves "the government" or "the State" have attempted — usually successfully — to gain a compulsory monopoly of the commanding heights of the economy and the society. In particular, the State has arrogated to itself a compulsory monopoly over police and military services, the provision of law, judicial decision-making, the mint and the power to create money unused land ("the public domain"), streets and highways, rivers and coastal waters, and the means of delivering mail.

    Control of land and transportation has long been an excellent method of assuring overall control of a society; in many countries, highways began as a means of allowing the government to move its troops conveniently throughout its subject country. Control of the money supply is a way to assure the State an easy and rapid revenue, and the State makes sure that no private competitors are allowed to invade its self-arrogated monopoly of the power to counterfeit (i.e., create) new money. Monopoly of the postal service has long been a convenient method for the State to keep an eye on possibly unruly and subversive opposition to its rule.

    "Throughout history groups of men calling themselves 'the government' have attempted to gain a compulsory monopoly of the commanding heights of the economy and the society."
    In most historical epochs, the State has also kept a tight control over religion, usually cementing a comfortable, mutually supportive alliance with an Established Church: with the State granting the priests power and wealth, and the Church in turn teaching the subject population their divinely proclaimed duty to obey Caesar. But now that religion has lost much of its persuasive power in society, the State is often willing to let religion alone, and to concentrate on similar if looser alliances with more secular intellectuals. In either case, the State relies on control of the levers of propaganda to persuade its subjects to obey or even exalt their rulers.

    But, above all, the crucial monopoly is the State's control of the use of violence: of the police and armed services, and of the courts — the locus of ultimate decision-making power in disputes over crimes and contracts. Control of the police and the army is particularly important in enforcing and assuring all of the State's other powers, including the all-important power to extract its revenue by coercion.

    For there is one crucially important power inherent in the nature of the State apparatus. All other persons and groups in society (except for acknowledged and sporadic criminals such as thieves and bank robbers) obtain their income voluntarily: either by selling goods and services to the consuming public, or by voluntary gift (e.g., membership in a club or association, bequest, or inheritance). Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion, by threatening dire penalties should the income not be forthcoming. That coercion is known as "taxation," although in less regularized epochs it was often known as "tribute." Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State's inhabitants, or subjects.

    It would be an instructive exercise for the skeptical reader to try to frame a definition of taxation which does not also include theft. Like the robber, the State demands money at the equivalent of gunpoint; if the taxpayer refuses to pay his assets are seized by force, and if he should resist such depredation, he will be arrested or shot if he should continue to resist.

    It is true that State apologists maintain that taxation is "really" voluntary; one simple but instructive refutation of this claim is to ponder what would happen if the government were to abolish taxation, and to confine itself to simple requests for voluntary contributions. Does anyone really believe that anything comparable to the current vast revenues of the State would continue to pour into its coffers? It is likely that even those theorists who claim that punishment never deters action would balk at such a claim. The great economist Joseph Schumpeter was correct when he acidly wrote that "the theory which construes taxes on the analogy of club dues or of the purchase of the services of, say, a doctor only proves how far removed this part of the social sciences is from scientific habits of mind.
     

    Summit_Ace

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    A great piece written by the great Murray Rothbard.

    http://mises.org/daily/2585

    Here is a portion.

    So far in this book, we have developed a theory of liberty and property rights, and have outlined the legal code that would be necessary to defend those rights. What of government, the State? What is its proper role, if any?

    Most people, including most political theorists, believe that once one concedes the importance, or even the vital necessity, of some particular activity of the State — such as the provision of a legal code — that one has ipso facto conceded the necessity of the State itself.

    The State indeed performs many important and necessary functions: from provision of law to the supply of police and fire fighters, to building and maintaining the streets, to delivery of the mail. But this in no way demonstrates that only the State can perform such functions, or, indeed, that it performs them even passably well.

    Suppose, for example, that there are many competing cantaloupe stores in a particular neighborhood. One of the cantaloupe dealers, Smith, then uses violence to drive all of his competitors out of the neighborhood; he has thereby employed violence to establish a coerced monopoly over the sale of cantaloupes in a given territorial area.

    Does that mean that Smith's use of violence to establish and maintain his monopoly was essential to the provision of cantaloupes in the neighborhood? Certainly not, for there were existing competitors as well as potential rivals should Smith ever relax his use and threat of violence; moreover, economics demonstrates that Smith, as a coercive monopolist will tend to perform his service badly and inefficiently.

    Protected from competition by the use of force, Smith can afford to provide his service in a costly and inefficient manner, since the consumers are deprived of any possible range of alternative choice.[1] Furthermore, should a group arise to call for the abolition of Smith's coercive monopoly there would be very few protesters with the temerity to accuse these "abolitionists" of wishing to deprive the consumers of their much desired cantaloupes.

    And yet, the State is only our hypothetical Smith on a gigantic and all-encompassing scale. Throughout history groups of men calling themselves "the government" or "the State" have attempted — usually successfully — to gain a compulsory monopoly of the commanding heights of the economy and the society. In particular, the State has arrogated to itself a compulsory monopoly over police and military services, the provision of law, judicial decision-making, the mint and the power to create money unused land ("the public domain"), streets and highways, rivers and coastal waters, and the means of delivering mail.

    Control of land and transportation has long been an excellent method of assuring overall control of a society; in many countries, highways began as a means of allowing the government to move its troops conveniently throughout its subject country. Control of the money supply is a way to assure the State an easy and rapid revenue, and the State makes sure that no private competitors are allowed to invade its self-arrogated monopoly of the power to counterfeit (i.e., create) new money. Monopoly of the postal service has long been a convenient method for the State to keep an eye on possibly unruly and subversive opposition to its rule.

    "Throughout history groups of men calling themselves 'the government' have attempted to gain a compulsory monopoly of the commanding heights of the economy and the society."
    In most historical epochs, the State has also kept a tight control over religion, usually cementing a comfortable, mutually supportive alliance with an Established Church: with the State granting the priests power and wealth, and the Church in turn teaching the subject population their divinely proclaimed duty to obey Caesar. But now that religion has lost much of its persuasive power in society, the State is often willing to let religion alone, and to concentrate on similar if looser alliances with more secular intellectuals. In either case, the State relies on control of the levers of propaganda to persuade its subjects to obey or even exalt their rulers.

    But, above all, the crucial monopoly is the State's control of the use of violence: of the police and armed services, and of the courts — the locus of ultimate decision-making power in disputes over crimes and contracts. Control of the police and the army is particularly important in enforcing and assuring all of the State's other powers, including the all-important power to extract its revenue by coercion.

    For there is one crucially important power inherent in the nature of the State apparatus. All other persons and groups in society (except for acknowledged and sporadic criminals such as thieves and bank robbers) obtain their income voluntarily: either by selling goods and services to the consuming public, or by voluntary gift (e.g., membership in a club or association, bequest, or inheritance). Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion, by threatening dire penalties should the income not be forthcoming. That coercion is known as "taxation," although in less regularized epochs it was often known as "tribute." Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State's inhabitants, or subjects.

    It would be an instructive exercise for the skeptical reader to try to frame a definition of taxation which does not also include theft. Like the robber, the State demands money at the equivalent of gunpoint; if the taxpayer refuses to pay his assets are seized by force, and if he should resist such depredation, he will be arrested or shot if he should continue to resist.

    It is true that State apologists maintain that taxation is "really" voluntary; one simple but instructive refutation of this claim is to ponder what would happen if the government were to abolish taxation, and to confine itself to simple requests for voluntary contributions. Does anyone really believe that anything comparable to the current vast revenues of the State would continue to pour into its coffers? It is likely that even those theorists who claim that punishment never deters action would balk at such a claim. The great economist Joseph Schumpeter was correct when he acidly wrote that "the theory which construes taxes on the analogy of club dues or of the purchase of the services of, say, a doctor only proves how far removed this part of the social sciences is from scientific habits of mind.

    Good article
     

    dangermoney

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    Murray Rothbard is one of the best political and economic theorist in history.

    Personally, I prefer Adam Smith and David Ricardo whose time tested political and economic perspectives were based upon real world experience and observation rather than theory. Rothbard is Ok, but after so many years, I've grown weary of Austrian Economic theory's fixation on the way things should be versus acknowledging the way things are. I do find Austrian Economic theory entertaining and do derive some satisfaction when I see it apply in the real world "without modification".

    I do acknowledge the never-ending battle between liberty and the state, along with evilness of the state itself as demonstrated throughout the history of mankind. However, I do have the good sense to know that the state is not always the culprit although it may serve as an enabler to evil or be a symptom of the underlying "real" problem for which it is named as a scapegoat.

    So, I ask you, who is the "real" culprit if Smith is able to utilize the services of the State for the purpose of enforcing and perpetuating his monopoly status and imposing his economic wrath upon others without fear nor worry of competition - Smith or The State?
     

    thatwhichisnt

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    Personally, I prefer Adam Smith and David Ricardo whose time tested political and economic perspectives were based upon real world experience and observation rather than theory. Rothbard is Ok, but after so many years, I've grown weary of Austrian Economic theory's fixation on the way things should be versus acknowledging the way things are. I do find Austrian Economic theory entertaining and do derive some satisfaction when I see it apply in the real world "without modification".

    I do acknowledge the never-ending battle between liberty and the state, along with evilness of the state itself as demonstrated throughout the history of mankind. However, I do have the good sense to know that the state is not always the culprit although it may serve as an enabler to evil or be a symptom of the underlying "real" problem for which it is named as a scapegoat.

    So, I ask you, who is the "real" culprit if Smith is able to utilize the services of the State for the purpose of enforcing and perpetuating his monopoly status and imposing his economic wrath upon others without fear nor worry of competition - Smith or The State?

    I would say the State. If the state was non-existent then it would not be able to be used as a tool to create such an unfair advantage.

    I do enjoy Adam Smith. The "invisible hand" theory is the backbone to capitalism.
    I love Austrian economics. Not only because I agree with their proper role of government, but because it is easy to understand. I agree with them when they say human action in the economy is too complex to fully understand with graphs, charts, and such. They have been right on many issues for the past, lets say, 100 years.
     

    dangermoney

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    I would say the State. If the state was non-existent then it would not be able to be used as a tool to create such an unfair advantage.

    I do enjoy Adam Smith. The "invisible hand" theory is the backbone to capitalism.
    I love Austrian economics. Not only because I agree with their proper role of government, but because it is easy to understand. I agree with them when they say human action in the economy is too complex to fully understand with graphs, charts, and such. They have been right on many issues for the past, lets say, 100 years.

    I do agree that the state can be used as a tool. I also agree that graphs, charts, and such are generally meaningless (much like an annual medical test - mammogram for instance), as they only represent a snapshot in time which can change (for better or worse) the very instant the snapshot is taken. I too enjoy Austrian Economics and having been following it for quite some time although I consider it to be one tool of many that I use to "try" to understand the global world of economics that surrounds me.

    How about this one:

    Smith is extremely angry at Jones who is having an affair with his wife. Smith can take the thought of it no longer and, after much deliberation, decides that he will kill Jones in cold blood. He grabs his pistol, loads it, walks over to Jones' house, rings the door bell, and when Jones opens the door to greet him, Smith shoots him dead. Who is the culprit? Smith or the pistol?

    ;)
     
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    thatwhichisnt

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    Smith is the culprit. I agree. However, without the use of a gun to meet his ends, then the conversation would be moot. Man, ultimately is responsible for his own action.

    However, if you believe the innitiation of force is immoral, then you have to be an anti statist. Government, by deffinition is force. It has no power besides what it steals from the people living in its territory.
     

    thatwhichisnt

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    Look at the current healthcare bill insurance mandate. It forces you to buy healthcare from an insurance company. Who is to blame for this travesty? The State or the insurance companies?
     

    dangermoney

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    Smith is the culprit. I agree. However, without the use of a gun to meet his ends, then the conversation would be moot. Man, ultimately is responsible for his own action.

    Not always true. If Smith wants to end Jones to keep his wife to himself, he will do it one way or another. The pistol just happens to be one tool that he has at his disposal. He can find others. On a higher level, if Smith happens to be a person of wealth, power, and influence, he can pay someone else to do his dirty work for him.
     

    dangermoney

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    Look at the current healthcare bill insurance mandate. It forces you to buy healthcare from an insurance company. Who is to blame for this travesty? The State or the insurance companies?

    Mandatory health insurance is the only "real" change that will come out of RomneyCare/ObamaCare and I have said so since the beginning. This was their plan all along and the media display of petty bickering and name calling was just an entertaining distraction designed to make it "look good".

    So, do I support it? Hell no, it will do nothing but continue to subsidize a failing system. Are the Democrats against it? Hell no. Are the Republicans against it? Hell no. But, to answer your question ... both are to blame, along with many other special interests in both the public and private sectors who have invested heavily in time and money in order to eliminate risk so that they can ensure a positive ROI in the future. Taxpayer subsidized tapeworm economics must continue unabated at all cost.

    A better question to ask would be who stands to benefit from this "travesty". If you can answer this one truthfully, you will have the correct answer to your original question.
     

    thatwhichisnt

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    Not always true. If Smith wants to end Jones to keep his wife to himself, he will do it one way or another. The pistol just happens to be one tool that he has at his disposal. He can find others. On a higher level, if Smith happens to be a person of wealth, power, and influence, he can pay someone else to do his dirty work for him.

    Right. No one, however, can just wish someone dead. If he wants to kill him then he must use some kind of tool.
     

    thatwhichisnt

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    Mandatory health insurance is the only "real" change that will come out of RomneyCare/ObamaCare and I have said so since the beginning. This was their plan all along and the media display of petty bickering and name calling was just an entertaining distraction designed to make it "look good".

    So, do I support it? Hell no, it will do nothing but continue to subsidize a failing system. Are the Democrats against it? Hell no. Are the Republicans against it? Hell no. But, to answer your question ... both are to blame, along with many other special interests in both the public and private sectors who have invested heavily in time and money in order to eliminate risk so that they can ensure a positive ROI in the future. Taxpayer subsidized tapeworm economics must continue unabated at all cost.

    A better question to ask would be who stands to benefit from this "travesty". If you can answer this one truthfully, you will have the correct answer to your original question.
    I agree. Both the State and the private insurance companies will benefit.
     

    Mjolnir

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    Personally, I prefer Adam Smith and David Ricardo whose time tested political and economic perspectives were based upon real world experience and observation rather than theory. Rothbard is Ok, but after so many years, I've grown weary of Austrian Economic theory's fixation on the way things should be versus acknowledging the way things are. I do find Austrian Economic theory entertaining and do derive some satisfaction when I see it apply in the real world "without modification".

    I do acknowledge the never-ending battle between liberty and the state, along with evilness of the state itself as demonstrated throughout the history of mankind. However, I do have the good sense to know that the state is not always the culprit although it may serve as an enabler to evil or be a symptom of the underlying "real" problem for which it is named as a scapegoat.

    So, I ask you, who is the "real" culprit if Smith is able to utilize the services of the State for the purpose of enforcing and perpetuating his monopoly status and imposing his economic wrath upon others without fear nor worry of competition - Smith or The State?
    I don't care for either. Adam Smith advocated using drugs on the fledgling colonists and Ricardo was the clown who theorized "Free Trade".
     

    Mjolnir

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    I guess that's one interpretation. So, tell me, whose theories should I befriend?
    Well, it's THE interpretation as we are still at war with the British Crown's NWO antics. It *IS* "their" plan and I suppose you oppose them.

    I cannot "tell you" whose theories to befriend. I can tell you to become familiar with "all of them" keeping in mind what this nation stands for as you read them. It will then be obvious to you.

    Try reading Thomas Paine, Frederic Bastiat and other Founders (Fred Bastiat was not one) and compare and contrast the other Crown Agents' position.
     
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