Understood good sir. Thanks for the clarification.
A 6K MP pistol
- Thread starter bayougump
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Understood good sir. Thanks for the clarification.
Yall do know the Costa guns where selling for 1700ish when they where on ATEI website right? This is just some guy on gunbroker and not what the guns actually went for to the original owners.
http://ateiguns.com/costa/
http://ateiguns.com/costa/
One of the reasons Glock is so reliable is that the chambers are so loose. Matter of fact, just look at any .40 brass thats been fired through a Glock. It will not feed through any other manufacturers gun without extensive resizing simply because the case expands so far to meet to chamber walls.
Oversized chambers help with feeding but don't do anything for accuracy.
Oversized chambers help with feeding but don't do anything for accuracy.
Well, it sold for $6025 so someone with more coin than brains got what they wanted.
$1600 was still too much. Maybe if it had an optic on it.
The dude in the GB ad said 25 were made, the website says 60.
Good thing they didn't make a Travis Haley edition, the internet would have exploded.
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Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
I mean this with as much respect and as little angst as one could possibly imagine.
No, you haven't.
Out run the sights with your trigger finger... Possibly. Depends on a lot of things.
Out run your eyes and trigger control with your trigger speed, certainly.
But you're not sub-.1ing enough shots, by enough time, to actually outrun the gun cycling. Trigger freeze mistaken for this nearly physically impossible phenomenon aside.
Slides are lightened in order to produce less violent recoil impulses, when used in unison with lighter springs. Yes, they will open and close faster-- which is also a benefit in terms of the time it takes the sights to disrupt, and *possibly* be returned to the notch (based on shooter skill). Subsequently, aside from the trigger and grip stippling, the slide lightening is the biggest improvement to the guns "shootability."
There's not a soul here-- myself included-- that would benefit more from those 3 improvements than they would from $6k worth of practice and training. And considering you could get the same trigger and stippling for $200-300 elsewhere... Well, you get the idea.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
I feel no different than when I responded the first time.
I wasn't contending any of the other points-- there are noteworthy improvements, but none are worth $6k. As you say.
Simply clarifying that the slide lightening, though the most dramatic and obvious in appearance, isn't a magical process that will make the gun run better for the best OR worst shooter on the planet. It would probably make a novice to above average shooter feel better about their recoil management, and give a top notch shooter a slight bump in shot-to-shot, aimed splits.
But we could cut half the weight out of one slide and leave the other stock, and blindly hosing both into the berm would not yield faster splits with the tweaked pistol. The mechanical cycling of the slide during the firing cycle is notably faster than one can reliably reset the trigger-- much less break another shot.
Besides-- the lock up on the M&P is do crappy, there's no telling what shaving weight from the slide and spring could do. In theory, it'd be an improvement-- but a lot of disastrous outcomes have stemmed from sound theories.
I wasn't contending any of the other points-- there are noteworthy improvements, but none are worth $6k. As you say.
Simply clarifying that the slide lightening, though the most dramatic and obvious in appearance, isn't a magical process that will make the gun run better for the best OR worst shooter on the planet. It would probably make a novice to above average shooter feel better about their recoil management, and give a top notch shooter a slight bump in shot-to-shot, aimed splits.
But we could cut half the weight out of one slide and leave the other stock, and blindly hosing both into the berm would not yield faster splits with the tweaked pistol. The mechanical cycling of the slide during the firing cycle is notably faster than one can reliably reset the trigger-- much less break another shot.
Besides-- the lock up on the M&P is do crappy, there's no telling what shaving weight from the slide and spring could do. In theory, it'd be an improvement-- but a lot of disastrous outcomes have stemmed from sound theories.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Haha.
I'm agreeing with you, when you say-- they make improvements, but not for $6k in value.
More precisely stated I guess-- "As you say, there are improvements, but not enough to justify a $6k price tag."
Better?
returningliberty
Well-Known Member
Sort of off topic, but when I'm really rolling, and using 147gr (barely minor power factor) loads I really do feel like I'm waiting on my gun sometimes. I know this is impossible (I think the cyclic rate is sub .10?) so what's Actually happening?
It does not happen when I use 125gr bullets at a slightly higher pf.
It does not happen when I use 125gr bullets at a slightly higher pf.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Several people report this. I experience the same thing, which is why I've never shot 147's. (135's FTW, by the way...)
The slide on a Glock, M&P, etc. cycles somewhere in the realm of .03-.05, based on high speed video taken of competition guns and some SWAGging on the part of guys smarter than me. If you wreck a sub-.1 split with a Glock trigger, you're kicking some serious ass.
So why does it seem and feel like you're waiting?
We all have to make a specific Power Factor, as you know-- and it can be accomplished through higher velocities and lighter bullets, or heavier bullets and lower velocities. The former generates more muzzle flip and felt (snappy) recoil; the latter results in a softer "shooting" (really "feeling") load.
That feel is a consequence not of the FORCE exerted on the shooter, through the frame, by the cycling slide-- but a consequence of the SPEED at which it happens. (In terms of the physics, a 115 grain load and a 160 grain load both making 130 Power Factor are exerting the same overall force on the pistol and shooter-- weight times velocity, both equaling 130,000.)
So a lighter projectile, with more powder and gas behind it, blows the slide open sooner. It hits the stop sooner, the spring closes it sooner. The same force-- but in a shorter period of time, which equates to "more violently" in terms of our perception of feel, sight, etc. (Note that a fairly significant portion of the time difference comes between the primer's ignition and the opening of the slide. That seriously adds to the sensation of "waiting around", but it also makes it easier for people to call shots with higher weight/lower velocity loads...)
As a shooter, you can feel every step in that process. And with 147s in Minor PF ranges, you can actually REALLY feel every step in that process-- even under the stress of shooting at high speed. Being able to perceive it at all would CERTAINLY make it seem as if you were waiting-- and since you're not 100% focused on "the shooting" if you're noticing that sensation, you are... technically... waiting on the slide to close. (Though your senses and perception are WAY slower than the mechanical process of the firing cycle, of course.)
Now, over time and perhaps with some dedicated experimenting/training, you could get over that feeling and shoot the gun without feeling like you were waiting around. But that's not the real problem.
ATTACHED to that slide, are those oh-so-important bumps we call... the sights. When the slide blasts open and snaps closed at the speed your 124 grain loads accomplish, they are simply in motion for a shorter period of time-- and it IS notable to your eyes and perception. Depending on your ability to manage and time the recoil, it can seem like you're waiting an ETERNITY on the sights to chill out when shooting heavier grained projectiles making the same PF. Snappier load, snappier sights, snappier sense of shooting-- and at least in my case, actually faster and more accurate shooting!
returningliberty
Well-Known Member
So you think that extra .01-.02sec of cyclic rate is causing just enough time delay to lag the "human element" out?
That's really interesting. I would not have thought my senses capable of even noticing the difference, but you really can tell in real life. Maybe it's just enough delay to short out the brain into Thinking its waiting forever for the slide to settle back down.
That's really interesting. I would not have thought my senses capable of even noticing the difference, but you really can tell in real life. Maybe it's just enough delay to short out the brain into Thinking its waiting forever for the slide to settle back down.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
That's exactly what it is. You can actually perceive the whole process when it slows down just that tiny little bit, and just being able to perceive it... translates to a sense of "waiting around".
The fastest transmission of information comes from your eyes to your brain. That's why your best shooting is done without any conscious thought at all on the process-- just watching the sights lift and settle, lift and settle, move to the next target and stop, lift and settle, etc.
When you throw in a physical (touch) sensation-- especially one as complex as "gun opens, slide hits the stop, gun closes-- damn, I can feel the spring working!"... AND couple that to your brain going, "WTF is this ****???"... It translates to a perception of slow, waiting, etc.
returningliberty
Well-Known Member
When I get my slide back I'm going to record a big enough sample size to see if the splits are materially different. The psychological aspect of it may be big enough to slow us down in reality.
What's REALLY weird is I have not noticed the same thing in my 200gr .40 loads. They meet major though so that could be the reason.
What's REALLY weird is I have not noticed the same thing in my 200gr .40 loads. They meet major though so that could be the reason.
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Last year I was shooting some factory 124+P rounds and decided to try some factory 147gr. rounds in a Gen 4 Glock 34. The 147gr. felt so soft after the 124+P I disassembled the pistol and looked through the barrel to make sure I did not have a squib. Put it back together and continued to shoot.
dixiejarhead
Well-Known Member
LOL. Fool and his money... Well it's nice eye candy...
Also, 135's in nine FTW - I agree wholeheartedly. Best load I ever shot from my hi powers were 135 HP's...
Also, 135's in nine FTW - I agree wholeheartedly. Best load I ever shot from my hi powers were 135 HP's...
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
And I'm shooting a HiPower clone, so double thumbs up!
