About to sip the Kool Aid...

[Hardballing]

Many of you know how much I kid my H&K Lovin Brothers about their addiction to their gats. Want to start a BS.com fight? Post a thread saying, "Glocks kick H&K's Azz" and watch the fur fly.

So it's odd to me that I just purchased a chrome PSP. Lower Saxony redo with Ford's hardchrome treatment, two chrome mags, box/manual/tools, etc. Haven't got it yet, but was exposed to the disease by Tulse Luper and his PSP and P7M8 (yeah, I NEVER should have put you onto that one at that price Brah, should have kept it for me ) and can't recall a more accurate blaster in the last 10 years or so of 9mm experimentation. I'm talking about non modified/customized, just out of the box one hole blasters. Was looking for something a "lil exotic" and as I kept looking around, I kept coming back to this model. So I bit, or drank, of the H&K koolaid. Am I now doomed?

Yeah, I've read and experienced the "negatives" of hot frames (overblown imo) but I'm wondering how I missed out on these for all these years.

So...eating crow and all...who else is a PSP junkie? Not a junkie yet on my part, but I find myself anticipating this one more than any other in recent memory. And who can throw me some PSP P7 porn while I'm waiting this week for mine to show up?

Will post my own "show you mine" after I get it in on Wed/Thurs.

Merry Christmas to All. And Merry Christmas to Me too.

T

 

[Sin-ster]

Another soul lost...

We'll pray for you.

 

[Tx_oil]

Count me in also...my P7 after Ford's refinish in hard chrome. Damn accurate and a real joy to shoot. What's not to love?

 

[Hardballing]

Not giving up my G17 Brother. Still can't beat anywhere in the world car hood repair with a simple punch. That is if it even needed repair.

As far as LEM triggers...don't get me started.

But...kind of dug the all steel frame, machined construction, and well...the weirdness of the thing. Or uniqueness. Or whatever you want to call it.

Not to mention that with Tulse's I couldn't seem to miss from any range. Literally one ragged hole about 1" at 15 yards and only double that at 25 yards.

Uh...ok...I'll take that. I guess. And the prayers too Brah!

 

[Hardballing]

Count me in also...my P7 after Ford's refinish in hard chrome. Damn accurate and a real joy to shoot. What's not to love?

With polished flats?

Lil bling eh? Yep, what's not to love.

 

[Tulse Luper]

Kool Aid is for children. You're drinking Château Mouton Rothschild now. Welcome to enlightenment.

I've said too much. We will fill you in during your first visit to Ivory Tower, our lodge, as part of your induction ablution.

 

[Dave328]

Careful, we musn't reveal too much. Remember he still pledges allegience to one of Gaston's black turds.
In order to stride proudly upon the path to True Enlightenment, one must be able to completely wash oneself of the filth that comes with ownership of inferior, pedestrian, and boring weaponry.

 

[Tulse Luper]

Careful, we musn't reveal too much. Remember he still pledges allegience to one of Gaston's black turds.
In order to stride proudly upon the path to True Enlightenment, one must be able to completely wash oneself of the filth that comes with ownership of inferior, pedestrian, and boring weaponry.

Indeed, which reminds me; prudence dictates we check with the logistics staff at Ivory Tower to confirm the washing solution is stocked for the lavation portion of the abultion. We don't want anything lingering, do we....

 

[Hardballing]

Careful, we musn't reveal too much. Remember he still pledges allegience to one of Gaston's black turds.
In order to stride proudly upon the path to True Enlightenment, one must be able to completely wash oneself of the filth that comes with ownership of inferior, pedestrian, and boring weaponry.

Actually, the G17 is the Fail Zero version and is no longer black.

And I'll be keeping that one for a long while so...if that means I don't get to learn the secret handshake, or have to give back the jar of Grey Poupon, well...so be it.

 

[Dave328]

Actually, the G17 is the Fail Zero version and is no longer black.

A quote from The Holy Book of Armaments:
"And lo, Edmund Heckler did decend from the mountaintop, and he spoketh,"" If'th thou taketh a smelly black Austrian turd and gild'th it in the finest gold and platinum, would it still not be a shiny gold and platinum gilded turd?"" . The Enlightened did rejoice and sing, and the unclean did wail, and bitcheth, and moaneth about thine suckething and being hated upon."

 

[Tulse Luper]

Brother Ballin', this is the deal with 147s and the P7.

Okay guys let me try again.

1. 147 grain Warning in P7 Operators Manuals
There were no less than 8 different operators/owners manuals for the HK P7 family when I departed HK in 2006, each one a different version. I updated two myself and included much of the real meat that exists to include the warnings on 147 grain ammo that came from the NJSP testing that occurred in the 1980's as posted earlier and the more detailed warnings on gas system cleaning. This issued also occurred with other P7M8 users. Thing is it depends on what version manual you have. The 147 grain ammo warning may not be in there. Many of the used police turn ins are going out w/o manuals or with an earlier version, some very old versions in the German language I have been told.

2. Manual or Not use it at your Own Peril
While it may be true in some P7's that the 147 grain will function AGAIN the gun was not designed for it and the engineers at HK GmbH stated it should not be used. There are various internal reports w/i HK that state that. Few manuals are 100% up to date all the time or all inclusive. You want to shoot 147’s in your P7 be my guest. If you have a nosing up stoppage in a defensive engagement, bad on you. You were warned. Maybe you also like shooting 62 grain 5.56’s in a 1/12” twist – go ahead.

3. Detailed Technical Explanation of The Issue
I no longer have the report and tables on the issue but if I did it would look like this. Envision a horizontal table or graph beginning with 1 - 10 along a horizontal line left to right. The center position (5/6) is the optimum functional apex for the 9mm P7 using 124 grain NATO standard ammo, which is what it was designed for. The far left (1) is underfunction (caused by too little recoil impulse, < 100 grain bullet ammo, too much gas braking, etc.) and the far right (10) overfunction. A fully functional P7 will operate reliably from the 3 to 8. Various causes of the movement away from center affecting optimum designed-based function are changes in ammo outside design specs (bullet weights, pressures, MV, slide velocities), worn parts (piston and cylinder “fit”, mag springs strength, etc.), pistol condition (cleaned and lubed or dry and dirty), etc. Each deficiency moves the optimum function further from the 5/6 range with decreased reliability resulting. When you get to the left and right limits 2 and 9 you can expect stoppages and/or breakages and 1 and 10 you WILL HAVE stoppages and/or breakages.

This is especially true with the relatively sensitive gas retarded blowback operating system of the P7 (save the K3 model). ) (I love the system but the word “retarded”, NO OFFENSE fits in many ways!). The gun only works properly based on measurements of microns (1 micron = 1,000,000th of a meter or approximately, 0.00003937 inches) the exact measurement I don’t recall but is the critical tolerance between the gas piston and gas cylinder (not unlike an internal combustion engine). The design tolerance is established based on the "fuel" used in the machine (again the engine analogy - run low octane fuel in a race car engine and your optimum function suffers, moves to the 2 and 9 range on our graph. Still runs mind you but one is increasing the likelihood of functional problems by doing so).

Back to the graph and the P7. What we found with the NJSP and the 147 grain ammo in their P7M8's (mostly an issue in the P7M8 because the early magazine feed lips of the P7M8's were shorter than those on the P7M13. P7M8 mags from the late 80's on had the longer feed lips to hold the round more secure in the magazine so it would not get "bumped" as easily when the slide strikes the frame harder due to the excessive slide velocity caused by the heavy 147 grain bullet).

Start with a fully functional P7M8 in the 5/6 range. As I recall the use of 147grain ammo alone pushed the function out to around 8. Add in a worn piston (too aggressive cleaning with wire brushes or green scrubbing pads – common in the early days of the P7 in the US by former military guys wanting white glove inspection clean pistols!), AND/OR a fouled or dry pistol, AND/OR a worn/lame magazine spring AND/OR “short lip” old-style magazines and you are now well within the “twilight zone” of failure drills and frustrations, and loss of confidence in an otherwise very reliable, dependable handgun. Thing is to the classically trained eye (meaning those who only grew up with Browning-style recoil-operated pistols the gun looks 100% fully functional) when in fact it is barely limping along having been forced by the operator to operate outside its optimum range. This is not unique to the P7 or firearms. Any mechanical device has similar “operational ranges”. HK roller-locked guns of the same caliber have different locking pieces (80 for the G3 alone), Benelli M1 Super 90’s that run with low brass #9’s when an identical M1 Super 90 will not.

So what happens? I’ve explained this before but will again to make this LAST POST complete. The stoppage is classic P7 and was coined during the tests with the New Jersey State Police. “Nosing Up”. The last round in the magazine ends up sticking out of the ejection port pointing at 12 o’clock. The cause is the increased slide velocity of the heavy bullet ammo. That causes the slide to impact on the frame at rear stroke. That causes the top round in a nearly empty magazine (nosing up’s almost always happens with only one or two rounds in the magazine due to decreased magazine spring tension on the cartridge column when “uncompressed”) to shift forward and out of the correct feeding position under the feed lips. Now the slide comes forward again also at excessive speed and rather than push the round into the chamber in the preferred controlled manner intended by the HK designers it gets knocked out from under the feed lips and literally pops out and up through the ejection port. The slide catches it in that position. High speed video and lots of trial and error proved this as well as ways to avoid/correct it.

The other factors mentioned add to the chance of this happening. The short feed lips and weak magazine spring allow the last round or two to be “lose” in the magazine. Wear in the gas piston/cylinder fit adds to increased slide velocities. Even the firmness of the shooters grip can make a difference. In fact, it is quite easy to set up a P7 to nose up by imparting these various factors in a sample gun. The excessive slide velocity also damages parts at an increased rate, like firing pin springs, recoil springs and even cracked slides and firing pin retainers. No one single "fix" will address multiple problems. A stronger recoil or new magazine springs may help but cannot make up completely for other factors.

What can you do to avoid this? (that is if you care). Stay away from 147 grain (or heavier ammo). Select one of the outstanding 115 or 124 grain rounds or if you must have “heavies” going down range buy a .40 S&W caliber P7M10 or a different platform altogether.

That should about do it. If not, it’s a free world. Do as you please. What do I know?

G3Kurz

 

[Hardballing]

And he blasphemes The Holy LEM. He is but another infidel, seeking entrance to The Kingdom without commitment.

Let him eat Hapsburg polymer... he's clearly not ready for the true Aryan stuff.

.

May thyself and Dave kiss mine infidel bung.

 

[Hardballing]

Thanks Sam...MUCH appreciated. Just back from the show today with a 1000 round pack of 115 grn and 9mm Nato ammo. Have a pretty good variety of 124 grain JHP's of various makes hanging around too, so when it gets here I'll have to see what diet it prefers most. Of course, c'mon out and we'll fire em up.

And since I'm still getting flak on this, I MUST point out that my "gilded turd" will eat ANY 9mm load all day long. Must be that perfection thing again. Damn...truth sucks. Hard to accept for the Grey Poupon set, but there it is. Apparently having your rounds go "nose up" is not the only thing nose up from the Disciples of The Church of No Compromise.

I won't have to shoot this thing with my pinkie extended like some of the above will I?

 

[Dave328]

May thyself and Dave kiss mine infidel bung.

 

[RyanW]

I'm going to have to send StraightGrain an email to watch out for his IP. We can't have this kind of hot mess in our beloved garden.

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble"

 

[Skiney]

Will serve NO Wine untill it's time!

Why sip Kool-Air when you can have Wine and Cheese?

Merry Christmas

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[VeedUp]

Man I plan to pick up a P7, one of these days.

 

[Dave328]

Why sip Kool-Air when you can have Wine and Cheese?

Merry Christmas

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Perhaps, if by "wine and cheese", you mean a box of Franzia and a can of Cheez-Wiz.

 

[S&W4ME]

Yes, nothing like a fine wine on a lazy Sunday evening

 

[Skiney]

Yes, nothing like a fine wine on a lazy Sunday evening

Exactly but don't forget the Cheese and a Good Book:}

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