That’s not true Motor, just the dirty ones. However many you think that may be.
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Do you agree with me that bad apples statistically low. I’m not saying without consequence just statistically low. Follow me for a minute. I’m not discounting your thoughts but hoping I can justify them.
My point is statistics don’t define relevance. If there’s a 1/5 chance of rain the umbrella likely stays at home. Conversely if there was a 1/1000 chance I personally may be shot at I would be looking into body armor.
Odds on the lottery 1/302,600,000 but I still buy a ticket every once in a while.
I know in new and all but...
We get you are LE of some sort or are very close to some(s) are is, and it’s offensive to you that people search out the situtions that cast any LE in a bad light, this is just as counterproductive. Wouldn’t it have been more productive if you found 5 videos of officers saving puppies or kittens?
I don’t disagree at all brother. And I’m not a statistician. But I’m a very good estimator of a great many things. I notice and pay attention to patterns. And I absolutely understand that to become a LEO, most applicants must have a strong sense of commitment to the greater good. I’ve got family, both living and not, who served in law enforcement from federal to state to city. I worked for a Sheriff’s dept for 15 years. I laugh when anyone calls me a cop hater because I find ignorance funny.
What I’ve been saying all along, and what I’ve already explained is that the one bad apple theme has become rotten and lost in the bushel of other bad apples. I won’t ask how many is enough because we reached critical mass some time ago. When there are daily incidents of brutality and very often innocent people killed by the actions of a bad apple it’s past time for law enforcement on the whole to hit the reset button... that includes all the good apples maybe not being so offended when people react to the brutality, death and dare I say the high numbers of monetary settlements paid out to these individuals and their families at the expense of the tax payer. Maybe it’s time for the good apples to separate themselves from the bad. Maybe it’s time the higher ups in law enforcement set a better example than excusing so many of the bad apples as justified in their actions when they are not. There needs to be a clear understanding of when a LEO is blatantly violating a person’s rights without any just cause. We do have a constitution and a bill of rights to use as a guide. It’s not like there’s that much grey area. The old day in court don’t count for **** after an undeserved ass whooping, invasion of your home or a bullet to the face now does it...
Btw, borrowed the M&M thing for my sig line, thank you.
I don’t disagree at all brother. And I’m not a statistician. But I’m a very good estimator of a great many things. I notice and pay attention to patterns. And I absolutely understand that to become a LEO, most applicants must have a strong sense of commitment to the greater good. I’ve got family, both living and not, who served in law enforcement from federal to state to city. I worked for a Sheriff’s dept for 15 years. I laugh when anyone calls me a cop hater because I find ignorance funny.
What I’ve been saying all along, and what I’ve already explained is that the one bad apple theme has become rotten and lost in the bushel of other bad apples. I won’t ask how many is enough because we reached critical mass some time ago. When there are daily incidents of brutality and very often innocent people killed by the actions of a bad apple it’s past time for law enforcement on the whole to hit the reset button... that includes all the good apples maybe not being so offended when people react to the brutality, death and dare I say the high numbers of monetary settlements paid out to these individuals and their families at the expense of the tax payer. Maybe it’s time for the good apples to separate themselves from the bad. Maybe it’s time the higher ups in law enforcement set a better example than excusing so many of the bad apples as justified in their actions when they are not. There needs to be a clear understanding of when a LEO is blatantly violating a person’s rights without any just cause. We do have a constitution and a bill of rights to use as a guide. It’s not like there’s that much grey area. The old day in court don’t count for **** after an undeserved ass whooping, invasion of your home or a bullet to the face now does it...
Btw, borrowed the M&M thing for my sig line, thank you.
I don’t disagree at all brother. And I’m not a statistician. But I’m a very good estimator of a great many things. I notice and pay attention to patterns. And I absolutely understand that to become a LEO, most applicants must have a strong sense of commitment to the greater good. I’ve got family, both living and not, who served in law enforcement from federal to state to city. I worked for a Sheriff’s dept for 15 years. I laugh when anyone calls me a cop hater because I find ignorance funny.
What I’ve been saying all along, and what I’ve already explained is that the one bad apple theme has become rotten and lost in the bushel of other bad apples. I won’t ask how many is enough because we reached critical mass some time ago. When there are daily incidents of brutality and very often innocent people killed by the actions of a bad apple it’s past time for law enforcement on the whole to hit the reset button... that includes all the good apples maybe not being so offended when people react to the brutality, death and dare I say the high numbers of monetary settlements paid out to these individuals and their families at the expense of the tax payer. Maybe it’s time for the good apples to separate themselves from the bad. Maybe it’s time the higher ups in law enforcement set a better example than excusing so many of the bad apples as justified in their actions when they are not. There needs to be a clear understanding of when a LEO is blatantly violating a person’s rights without any just cause. We do have a constitution and a bill of rights to use as a guide. It’s not like there’s that much grey area. The old day in court don’t count for **** after an undeserved ass whooping, invasion of your home or a bullet to the face now does it....
Ok, lets look at estimates, stats, and trends, all at once.
There are 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the US. Assume that they each have 10 interactions with citizens each day. That's 180,000 interactions a day, across the country, which is probably low. That is 65,700,000 - almost 66 million- interactions per year. Pulling figures from a Chicago Tribune story about the numbers of gun deaths in the last couple of years, says that police fatally shot around 1000 people per year in 2015, 2016, 2017.
So, 1000 killed by police within 66 million citizen interactions. High stakes, but relatively low number of deaths. Of those deaths, in the last 2 years, 735-ish were armed. Ok, the majority of those were probably justified, I think most of us would agree. So, that leaves 265 shooting deaths out of 66 million interactions. That is statistically insignificant. Some of them may have been accidental, some may have been due to poor training, some of them may have been from a "bad apple" cop. But, that would even further reduce bad apple shootings.
And again, any life taken is a huge deal and even worse when it is not justified, but it is not realistic to say that there is a critical mass of bad apple cops these days. There is a trend today of media outlets putting out a narrative of their choosing, and a lot of that narrative deals with showing LE in a bad light. There is also lot of money to be made and power to be acquired by activists and politicians related to that platform. So, if you are estimating the number of bad apples based on media reports, then I can see how you would come to this conclusion, but I believe it is flawed.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...lice-fatal-shootings-2017-20180106-story.html
Austin, Krotsman, I appreciate your efforts. I seem to keep running into the same defense and that’s how low the numbers actually are. The number of innocents killed are actually low compared to the number of encounters...smh.
Please, supply some data that shows otherwise. Simply stating that the numbers are high because the media covers XYZ is not data. If you look solely at what the media (including people on YT/FB) report, the world would appear to be a place with no happiness, fires everywhere, pollution everywhere, and protests, constantly.
If I scratched my head and searched every database and media outlet I could find and only came up with a dozen or so senseless, unwarranted deaths in as many years at the hands of law enforcement, being a sensible person I’d have to agree with your thinking. But that isn’t the case. The numbers are far greater.
How can you make this claim without data to support it? Secondly, what in your opinion is an acceptable margin of error for police interactions with the public?
The number of errors made where a LEO decided to blunder full tilt into a situation that they caused until somebody was down and cuffed, shot or not. I’m talking wrong person, wrong house, wrong assumption, wrong suspicion, wrong place, wrong time, wrong wrong wrong. The numbers are greater than acceptable to me.
What are the numbers? If there are 1000 errors for every 100 million interactions (0.001% error rate), is that too much?
And I know they will only grow with the current attitudes toward the public by LEO’s.
Maybe the public needs to learn to not be dicks to LEOs. Common sense would dictate that not being a jerk would likely help one get treated better (in any situation in life).
I don’t know how many share the belief that they don’t need to wait and be sure about anything before proceeding to slam granny down to the pavement or tase grandpaw who’s nearly passed out at the wheel and unable to comply.
You don't know...so why bring it up? Do you really think that outside of maybe a very, very, very small number of the aforementioned bad apples that someone is going to "slam granny" on the ground? C'mon now, that's reaching.
The sheer expectation that if you do not waive your rights and do whatever I say when I say it or I will beat you down and cause you physical harm and demand that you hold completely motionless while I inflict this pain and I’ll be within my badge and gun given rights... lawful orders? Are they really lawful? Mostly they are not.
I think what you are referring to is people following the law. If a cop gives someone a lawful order, what do you expect to happen when they intentionally do not follow said order? Rights are based in law. The law also says you have to listen to an officer's lawful order. How often do you think police are really giving people unlawful orders...?
I can understand how a cop might fear or expect resistance when they decide to operate in such a manner. Because they know it’s wrong.
As far as the numbers go, they’re high enough to cause many law-abiding citizens to fear the police, lose trust in the police, and for those who believe you should be prepared to surrender your rights completely any time a LEO approaches you, ask yourself why that is.
It's not surrendering rights. It's called complying within the law. Big difference.
The numbers are too high. Too high to only deal with one case at a time after the fact. Too high to dismiss any of it at this point. It’s only gonna get worse.
What numbers? How many cases are there? What's your solution to the "bad apple" problem? Please let me know and we can apply it to a TON of professions and make a lot of money while helping a lot of people.
With that twisted logic you actually agree with the anti gun fanatics. *1 death caused by an assault rifle is too many*.
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Ok Austin, when do you think it’s too many innocents killed or abused? What’s your number? Done your homework? That’s hysterical. Your homework entails way too many assumptions when it comes to my views. But that’s fine.You seem to have formed an opinion based on a complete lack of research into actual data and now want to argue with those of us who have actually done our homework. Let's go through you post:
Ok Austin, when do you think it’s yoo many innocents killed or abused? What’s your number? Done your homework? That’s hysterical. Your homework entails way too many assumptions when it comes to my views. But that’s fine.
Here, I’m willing to admit right here and now that I can’t agree with your numbers. I’m willing to admit we will get nowhere in this discussion because I’m not willing to accept your numbers. If you need me to explain why I will, what has already happened to date is too many. If you find the numbers of innocents acceptable there’s no point in us continuing this conversation.
Oh why do you guys quote Motor’s posts? It’s been such a nice break to not have to see them.
For the record, I haven’t made assumptions or otherwise attempted to insult anyone here.
It is nice to be able to voice my opinions here at times but if you think your rhetoric and insults are any obstacle to that you’re mistaken. Neither of you have influenced me positively since I’ve been here.
What if I just go ahead and assume you’re a democrat because you use the Same tactics. Insult and challenge. If you don’t already see what’s going on around you I have no interest in pointing it out. I already know my feelings on the matter are based on enough fact and you’re wasting your argument on a person that will not see things your way. I can’t ignore all that I’ve seen in the media. All the videos of abuse of power and totally unwarranted searches, seizures, injury and death. I don’t live under a rock. I don’t turn a blind eye. And I don’t care what you believe. You’ve shown me the same quarter, have you not?I was responding to him.
You have made many assumptions (as pointed out in my above posts).
Where have you been insulted? Also, I would argue that there is a positive influence in having statistics supplied. Basing an opinion off of YouTube and the news media is a big problem in our country. People are making decisions based on emotion with a lack of reason all the time now and are unwilling to consider facts. The anti-gun community does this all the time. Would you not argue that it is problamatic?
I was responding to him.
You have made many assumptions (as pointed out in my above posts).
Where have you been insulted? Also, I would argue that there is a positive influence in having statistics supplied. Basing an opinion off of YouTube and the news media is a big problem in our country. People are making decisions based on emotion with a lack of reason all the time now and are unwilling to consider facts. The anti-gun community does this all the time. Would you not argue that it is problamatic?
What if I just go ahead and assume you’re a democrat because you use the Same tactics. Insult and challenge. If you don’t already see what’s going on around you I have no interest in pointing it out. I already know my feelings on the matter are based on enough fact and you’re wasting your argument on a person that will not see things your way. I can’t ignore all that I’ve seen in the media. All the videos of abuse of power and totally unwarranted searches, seizures, injury and death. I don’t live under a rock. I don’t turn a blind eye. And I don’t care what you believe. You’ve shown me the same quarter, have you not?
I’m done here. Goodnight.
Ok Austin, lemme make it easy for both of us. I believe what I believe because. Just because.I wholeheartedly disagree. I have not insulted you at all and have only presented facts.
You state that your feelings are based on "enough facts," but it seems like you only want to look at a very specific subset of facts and do not want to consider the full population. You keep dodging every time anyone above has presented a factual counter to your beliefs and aren't even addressing them. It seems as though you are in fact turning a blind eye and do not want to consider an alternative contrary to your beliefs.
I have seen the videos of abuse. But what about the videos of no abuse? The media highlights the bad because that's where money is made - from views and from getting people worked up.