Handgun Dis-Arming Class in Baton Rouge

[dawg23]

On February 17 William Aprill will be conducting a Handgun Dis-arming class in Baton Rouge.

For those who don't know William, he is one of the the top Certifed Disarm instructors in the country. (William is certified in knife and handgun disarms, but this class is strictly handgun "take-aways.")

For those who might wonder why they would need disarm skills, just think about the places we aren't allowed to carry: On airplanes, at schools, in some workplaces (like Exxon or Dow), at LSU football and basketball games, in bars, in Federal buildings, after consuming enough drinks to raise your Blood Alcohol level over .04 %, etc, etc. Plus, some of us don't carry all the time, even in places where CCW is authorized.

I have taken a couple of William's workshops in Memphis at Rangemaster (Tom Givens). Baton Rouge is a much shorter trip.

Cost will be $110 for an all-day class. There is an absolute money-back guarantee if anyone decides the class wasn't worthwhile.

Class size will be strictly limited to 20 students (10 pairs of two people). William is a firm believer in having every student participating fully, under his tutelage for the entire class.

If you are interested, send me a PM and I'll provide info on classs location, starting time, where to send payment, etc.

 

[jeremyws1]

Am I the only person that thinks this is a bad idea? I've heard making an aggressive move toward someone with a gun when you are unarmed is the last thing you should do in that situation.

 

[dawg23]

Am I the only person that thinks this is a bad idea? I've heard making an aggressive move toward someone with a gun when you are unarmed is the last thing you should do in that situation.

Jeremy:

My training must have been different from that which you have received.

No one is saying you should or must always make an aggressive move toward anyone. In many, if not most, situations you will probably decide to comply if you are being held at gunpoint. And without getting into the situational awareness mistakes that put you into that situation, compliance is often the wisest course of action once you are "screwed."

But suppose that you give up your wallet (or car keys, or whatever has been demanded of you) and then the VCA (bad guy) says "Your girlfriend is coming with us," or "Get in the car and let's go" or "Turn around and kneel on the ground." Statistically, in these situations, you are far better off to start resisting. Or to put it another way: In these situations, you'd better start resisting. (e.g. If you are in a restaurant whne it is robbed and you are told to go into the cooler with the employees, that's probably going to be a one-way trip)

If you think you can draw your pistol while being held at gunpoint and disable your attacker without getting shot, you are a LOT better than the guys I train with.

Conversely, if you don't believe that you can, under certain situations and with training, disarm a gunman without getting shot, you need to come take the class. Then you will either learn how to do this OR you get your money back. How can you lose ?

If anyone here has attended the Rangemaster Winter Tactical Conference in Memphis during the past several years, or has taken a disarm class, they can probably describe or explain it better than I am able to.

Send me a PM with any specific questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

 

[jeremyws1]

I guess I need to clarify my statement. I am not saying the ability to disarm an assailant is useless, but it should only be used as the VERY LAST resort by a trained PROFESSIONAL. I think we can all agree on the last resort part. As for the second part, classes like this can give a novice confidence in skills they lack. I think these classes are great for LEOs and other people with firearm/combat training, but I think they may do just as much harm as good for the general public (i.e. Susie Seventy Pounds, Nathan Never Touched A Handgun, Herman Hothead, etc.).

 

[jeremyws1]

No one is saying you should or must make an aggressive move toward anyone. In many, if not most, situations you will probably decide to comply if you are being held at gunpoint. And without getting into the situational awareness mistakes that out you into that situation, compliance is often the wisest course of action.

But suppose that you give up your wallet, or car keys, or whatever has been demanded of you, and then the VCA says "Your girlfriend is going with us," or "Get in the car and let's go" or "Turn around and kneel on the ground." Statistically, in these situations, you are far better off to start resisting. Or to put it another way: In these situations, you'd better start resisting.

If you think you can draw your pistol while being held at gunpoint and disable your attacker before he shoots you, you are a LOT better than the guys I train with.

100% agreed, though I equate a failed attempt to disarm to suicide.

 

[topgunz1]

we practiced several types of disarms in the academy, its a last resort type of thing... if the bad guy is more than practically within arms reach, your alot better off running like hell and hiding behind something that will stop bullets until you can get help/regroup

 

[dawg23]

......., but it should only be used as the VERY LAST resort by a trained PROFESSIONAL. ....... classes like this can give a novice confidence in skills they lack. I think these classes are great for LEOs and other people with firearm/combat training, but I think they may do just as much harm as good for the general public (i.e. Susie Seventy Pounds, Nathan Never Touched A Handgun, Herman Hothead, etc.).

Jeremy:

I would still like to know what training you have received that would lead you to these conclusions. Just a brief list of instructors and types of course.

If your logic were correct, only "trained professionals" would carry handguns. The disarm skills I'm discussing are mastered much more quickly than defensive handgun skills.

As for your opinion that such a class would give a novice confidence in skills they lack, that would be true for someone who has no hand-eye coordination. Of course if you are that big of a klutz, you don't need to be carrying a firearm (and you probably wouldn't be able to learn how to disarm an attacker either).

If you were pontificating based on your experience in having taken a class like the one under discussion, it would have some validity. Since you apparently haven't had any such instruction, your comments (which you certainly have the right to express) carry about as much weight at if we were discussing landing a space shuttle or neurosurgery.

In my first disarm class, years ago, we had a neat "graduation" exercise. We used revolvers (with very smooth triggers) loaded with Simunitions. For those who don't know, Simunitions are like "paintballs on steroids" - they draw blood at close range and leave a nasty bruise.

The bad guy (VCA) would stand in front of the victim with the muzzle about 12" from the victim's chest, with the hammer cocked and his finger on the trigger. The rules were, the VCA would say "Get in the car." and was allowed to shoot as soon as he saw the victim make a move to disarm.

Keeping in mind that even though the VCA knew a disarm would be attempted (there was no element of surprise), nobody got shot. (We wore Plexiglas face masks "just in case"). Every student went through this as the "shooter" and as the "victim." And this was after just a two hour workshop - and every student performed the disarm and nobody got shot.

Yes, Jeremy, this can be learned. Maybe it's not for you if you are too uncoordinated. (The class I described had 13 guys and three women. One was my wife - five feet zero inches tall.). No NFL players and no NBA players. Just ordinary folks (teachers, accountants, cops, a surveyor, one Spec Ops soldier, a dentist, a welder and a truck driver).

Yes it's a last resort thing. And yes it will only work in certain circumstances. (Topgunz1 is correct in saying that in many situations you are better off running). But if you need it in one of those "certain circumstances" (Maybe on an airplane? - Where ya' gonna run? Or maybe backed into a corner. Where ya' gonna run?), you'll be awfully glad to have this as an option (rather than just kneel there with the other sheep and get shot in the back of the head).

Now you can continue to trash the idea. And you certainly have the right to do this, but based on your earlier posts and your apparent lack of experience in this matter, that would out you in a position of rendering a judgment off on a topic that you really know nothing about. You seem to "feel" it is a bad idea, based on something you "heard."

A better and more logical option, it seems to me, would be for you to accept this offer: Come take the class, with a 100% money back guarantee, and THEN come back here and post an "After Action Report." It's a short drive from McComb to BR - and I'll even pay for your gasoline.

What have you got to lose ?

 

[jeremyws1]

I would still like to know what training you have received that would lead you to these conclusions. Just a brief list of instructors and types of course.

Since when did an opinion need a resume? Did I ask if you were college educated to validate the credibility of the course you are promoting? To humor your request, I have never taken a course, however, I have read many articles on the subject from time to time. Since I didn’t find them unusually interesting, I didn’t catalog them. You will have to forgive me, though I’m sure many of them were written by so-called experts. I use the phrase “so-called” because I don’t know if there are any statistics to prove courses like these help? How many members of the general public have tried to disarm an assailant after taking a class for that purpose? Even if you did have data, it would be hard to formulate a conclusion from such a small test set. You are under the impression that it couldn’t hurt, but that is untrue. You get ONE chance to disarm someone with a gun. I’ll take my chances running or doing what they ask of me. We both know each ends with success in at least some cases (possibly more than attempted disarmament).

As for your opinion that such a class would give a novice confidence in skills they lack, that would be true for someone who has no hand-eye coordination. Of course if you are that big of a klutz, you don't need to be carrying a firearm (and you probably wouldn't be able to learn how to disarm an attacker either).

I think you are missing my point. Courses like these could give a false sense of empowerment to someone that takes them. After taking a class, most people like to use their newfound skills and knowledge. These courses are no different. I don’t think the general public would have the restraint to use skills they learned in one day at the appropriate time. Again, you have ONE chance for success.

In my first disarm class, years ago, we had a neat "graduation" exercise. We used revolvers (with very smooth triggers) loaded with Simunitions. For those who don't know, Simunitions are like "paintballs on steroids" - they draw blood at close range and leave a nasty bruise.

The bad guy (VCA) would stand in front of the victim with the muzzle about 12" from the victim's chest, with the hammer cocked and his finger on the trigger. The rules were, the VCA would say "Get in the car." and was allowed to shoot as soon as he saw the victim make a move to disarm.

Keeping in mind that even though the VCA knew a disarm would be attempted (there was no element of surprise), nobody got shot. (We wore Plexiglas face masks "just in case"). Every student went through this as the "shooter" and as the "victim." And this was after just a two hour workshop - and every student performed the disarm and nobody got shot.

I find this hard to believe. Would it be a good idea to shoot someone at “graduation?” It would probably hurt the money back guarantee. In my mind, this just adds to the false sense of confidence.

You seem to "feel" it is a bad idea, based on something you "heard."

How else do you develop opinions? I never professed to be an expert on the matter. My first post simply asked if anyone else “felt” the way I did about what I had “heard.” Hell, the President has spent 6 years making decisions on what he “feels” and “hears.” Why can’t I?

A better and more logical option, it seems to me, would be for you to accept this offer: Come take the class, with a 100% money back guarantee, and THEN come back here and post an "After Action Report." It's a short drive from McComb to BR - and I'll even pay for your gasoline.

Better yet, I’ll buy 110 lottery tickets (I probably have better odds at winning than finding myself in a situation appropriate for disarmament), and you can send me a transcript of the class for me to read.

What have you got to lose ?

I have seconds that I could be lying peacefully on my couch reading threads on bayoushooter.com.

 

[topgunz1]

the simunition disarm sounds fun... I used my training once on a friend with an airsoft gun, he didnt shoot me so guess I learned something.

do they happen to teach "release and stun"? thats my favorite part of the technique...

 

[dawg23]

Jeremy:

I'm sure you're a nice guy. These classes, as well as tactical firearms training, are not for everyone. Sounds like they are definitely not for you.



Topgunz1:

You're correct - it is fun. Serious training, but fun. Plus, I've yet to talk to anyone who has actually received training that thought it was a bad idea or a waste of time.

I'm not sure what the "release and stun" technique is. I have been to several disarm workshops and most seem to follow (or partially follow) the krav maga model, which may be what you are referring to.

Like krav maga, William teaches a strike to the face or neck as part of the disarm. Other trainers dispense with the strike.

Did your disarm training involve striking the attacker ?

 

[jeremyws1]

Jeremy:

I'm sure you're a nice guy. These classes, as well as tactical firearms training, are not for everyone. Sounds like they are definitely not for you.

I try to be a very nice guy. Sorry, our opinions differ, but that's no reason not to voice mine. My first post was simply asking for opinions, but I think you took it as an attack. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

 

[UnseenUSPCompact]

how fast do you expect the class to fill up? Im interested, but don't know what my schedule holds a month from now. Thanks.

 

[dawg23]

how fast do you expect the class to fill up? Im interested, but don't know what my schedule holds a month from now. Thanks.

PM sent.

 

[dawg23]

TopGunz1:

Thanks for PM.

The step you described is one aspect of a couple of the techniques William teaches. His other techniques, which vary depending on the position of the attacker relative to the victim, use a different type of strike.

 

[gunz4me]

Forgive me if this is off topic, but years ago, I put a young, recently trained officer in his place. He was bragging that he could either disarm someone OR grab the slide of a Glock 17 and hold it back just enough so that it could not fire in order to save himself. Keep in mind, he was doing this at a gym where I used to work out in one of their self-defense classes. He tried his technique against a couple of novice guys who never held a gun before, and it worked rather well.

I then requested that he try his technique on me. First the disarm technique and he failed to disarm me before I could pull the trigger. In fact, before he could even finish his first step towards me, I had the trigger pulled on the snap cap. Next, he wanted to try the hold the slide back so the gun won't fire technique. Again, I was able to pull the trigger before he could grab the gun and I told him that I could have easily got off another shot if the gun were loaded. I guess the point I am trying to make here is that this young officer had a sense of empowerment gained from some class he took at an academy or some urban legend taught to him by a veteran officer, and it gave him a false sense of security. I would have concerns that other ordinary citizens who take such a handgun disarm course "could" be lulled into a false sense of security.

Granted, a disarm course could be useful to all of us if and only if the instructor stresses that utilizing such techniques still could result in the student being shot.

 

[topgunz1]

there are weaknesses to most disarm tactics... mainly being that if the suspect knows what he is doing and how to handle a weapon, it pretty much wont work. It very much hinges on the typical criminals lack of training, experience, and general "hollywood" effect.

 

[jeremyws1]

 

[dawg23]

Thank you, sir. Well said... and very, VERY true.

Now... before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I am NOT saying that whatever techniques espoused by this William fellow are no good. What I AM saying is that the adage "Use it or lose it" applies in spades to this sort of thing. IOW, if you don't CONTINUALLY practice the techniques you've learned, you won't be able to properly apply them when the time comes............

The rest of the time it was the old-fashioned way; fists, stick, and/or flashlight.

Its the same with shooting. Those cops (or citizens; take your pick) who only fire/handle their weapon once or twice a year when they are told to (and someone else is paying for the time and ammo) are easy to spot on the line. Yet, they think they will do just fine in a gunfight.

False sense of security, indeed...

.

Steve:

Sounds as if you'll be interested, as will I, to get Paul's (Pangris) AAR following the class. We'll all enjoy our false sense of security together. Or maybe he can practice these skills on those two new kids.

And if we're lucky, the only attacker well have to face will be Gunz4me's inept friend.

 

[dawg23]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not dissing this sort of thing. But it is an esoteric area that VERY few people have any experience at.

But unless you are versed in un-armed combat, all the techniques you'll learn in this sort of school being discussed are new and alien; and if you don't practice them religiously, you will forget them inside of a month. I can PROMISE you that.

.

In general, I agree with what you say. Any of the mall ninjas could jump to a "false sense of security." Just like they do when they get their CCW permit.

As far as the need to have previous training in "un-armed combat," I think you would find (and I think Paul will confirm after the class) that this class is a little different from what you are envisioning. Practice is essential for fluidity and smoothness, but these particular techniques don't disappear in a month, or even a year. At least didn't for me - but then I'm (hopefully) not a Ninja. ...... Paul, on the other hand, was wearing a black outfit the last time I saw him.

 

[Speedlace]

Could you PM me details on this class

-Speed