HB11 - Would eliminate renewal training for CHPs

[Leadfoot]

Tbone, I understand your point and it makes perfect sense. And all you people who say "YOU SHOULD GO TO WORK FOR THE BRADY BUNCH", ITS NOT ABOUT THE GUNS. It's about the uneducated people carrying them.

And I'm not just talking about CONCEALED CARRY. I'm talking about carrying PERIOD.

The whole NFA ACT, throw that **** out. Seriously. If you can have 1 type of gun, you should be able to have any kind. I don't believe that 1 gun is any more or less dangerous than the other. It's the PEOPLE behind them that are the whole problem. Machine guns don't kill people any more dead than a single shot revolver. So when you think you have me pegged as someone who's against guns, think again.

But I want people who are carrying a gun, who are exercising their right to self to defense, to DO IT IN A RESPONSIBLE AND SAFE MANNER, FOR EVERYONE'S SAKE. And there needs to be SOME KIND of filter to make sure this is the case. It's not about taking away anyone's rights, its about doing as much as you can to prevent them from UNINTENTIONALLY injuring or killing themselves or some other innocent person.

I don't look at carrying a gun as merely a right. I see it as an incredible RESPONSIBILITY.

JADE RAVEN:

Anyone who knows me, knows that being a "TACTICOOL OPERATOR" is the absolute last thing I am. I have a handicap. Where do you think the name Leadfoot comes from? It's not cause I always drive fast (even though I usually do). I could fight someone if absolutely necessary, but I certainly couldn't run away. So there's another myth busted. Even people with handicaps CAN AND SHOULD go through firearms training, I certainly don't use it as an excuse not to.

 

[enutees]

Some of you sound like you should go work for the Brady Bunch.

I actually had the same thought. You wonder why it is so easy to get laws passed that run against us? Of course some people don't understand guns or the laws but don't tell me that the idiot that came to the class with his gun new in box now understands everything they need to know.

I again point to the states that have no permit required for carry and they seem to do just fine. The idiots will always do the wrong thing regardless of having a permit.

Of course a lot of the people posting on this topic are instructors so it is self serving to want the training to stay.

I'll definitely be emailing my representatives to back this bill.

 

[Emperor]

Good points, all! In greater scheme of things, we are still a stygmatized bunch. Gun Owners/enthusiasts/carriers, etc. That my friends is media driven. This 2nd Amendment ideal that we hold in such high regard, and rightfully so, is fragile. If it weren't you would never need or have to debate issues as this.

Those of you that have these opinions are right to do so. But we must ALL agree that the greater good is served by us sticking together as a unified voice for gun advocacy in total. In the Legislatures of the country, as sick as this makes me, they don't feel as passionate as we about what they are voting on. They have become numb to your passion unless it satisfies their desires or power. Those of you that don't put faith in them are more right than you think.

Regardless of this particular issue and regrdless of how each of you feel about your point of view, this bill (which is the thread), is only going to pass or fail if there is a groundswell for or against. Do you have to sell your individual principles to join or die? Hell no! But you had better be prepared to get your ass kicked if your opponents build a better case to the numb ones than your side. If the larger groups say they are for this, and you happen to be opposed, you will be disappointed; and vice versa.

Gun advocacy is strong right now across the spectrum, but those who are so f'n stupid and out of touch (Schumer, Clinton, Feinstein, etc), with gun advocacy don't give a rat's ass. And any fragmentation they see in the gun community is food for fodder for those imbiciles.

Let's find out why this is good or bad, let's find out where the larger gun advocacy groups stand on this, and let's back it or oppose together. You may need to swallow some personal passion, but in the end we will win.

 

[LACamper]

Who will certify all the troopers?
Who will cover their shifts while off the road?
That is not a part of their chartered mission statement.
How much will it cost?
Do you really want to sit at the DMV for a day to take a test rahter than discuss firearm laws and issues with other students and an instructor?
Who will pay for their salary and associated expenses?
Who is going to pay to track the scores?
Who is going to pay to create the test?

That is a good idea, but all of that costs money. The reality is that you should not be going over all the same things that you did 5 years ago. There will always be legal changes. There will always be new case law to discuss. There will be new carry techniques and gear. there is always new topics.
the problem is that many instructors just do an hour or two and call it a day for renewals....yeah, that is a waste of everyone's time. Most people have had very poor experiences with CHP instructors and becaue of that have a jaded and negative view of the training experience. Going to a quality instructor will open your eyes to what you do not know, or it will at least get you thinking about things outside just the trigger and the sights.

I was actually thinking about how the insurance licensing exams are given. You show up to a test center, show ID, take a computer administered test and the kid at the window hands you your results. This could easily be done on a basic PC. It could be done online but you just need a way to make sure the right person is really taking the test.
As far as cost, I know it costs LSP time and money to manage the trainers. Yes, I'm sure they pay fees but that doesn't cover the real cost. And yes, I do understand that we're taking money out the trainers pockets on this. But we're saving money for everyone.
The poor cannot afford to get a CCW. It costs what, $300, to get a permit (class, fees, licensing, background checks), then another $200 every 4 years? The poor honest people are the ones that need the protection since they often live in crime infested neighborhoods. They are the ones that really need the training. They can't afford range time or ammo. Instead, they stick their hipernt in their waistband and take the chance of getting arrested. Maybe if we made it more accessible those people would get some training, and we would have more ccw permit holders supporting our right to carry. The more permits on the books, the harder it will be for the liberals to dismiss us as right wing nuts and take away our rights... Having it administered by a local community officer would be the perfect solution. He would be making contact with locals that are interested in reducing crime. Make it an officer friendly program for adults.

I have had the 1 to 2 hour renewal class in the past. I paid my money and got my piece of paper. What a waste of time. I've also suffered through sitting in on a basic class before. I think my snoring was disturbing the ones taking the class... I wouldn't mind taking a more advanced class. Actually, I'd rather have half a day of legal class and some one on one time spent with a shooting coach.

 

[tbone]

But I want people who are carrying a gun, who are exercising their right to self to defense, to DO IT IN A RESPONSIBLE AND SAFE MANNER, FOR EVERYONE'S SAKE.

I would like everyone guiding 3,000 lbs. of steel at 65 mph 3 ft. away from me to be doing it in a responsible and safe manner too. I can tell you that is not happening. I can't remember how many close calls on the highway I've had in 42 years of driving. All of the laws, fees and tests concerning this have done nothing to eliminate the irresponsible or stupid.
No amount of laws, classes or fees is going to eliminate the irresponsible or stupid. Responsible people seek out sources to teach them how to handle firearms and learn from them. My grandfather taught my father, he taught me. (My older brothers taught me with a box of shells up side the head if I were to commit an unsafe act. I suppose now they would be arrested for child cruelty.)
The irresponsible and stupid are getting CCP's, also. I've read on here where you all admit it after taking classes with them.
I've seen and read about irresponsible hunters my entire life. Hunters education started the late 70's and still has not prevented stupidity.
It justs costs the responsible to do something that we should be able to do anyway. And it increases the control the government has over our private affairs.

 

[Hitman]

I would like everyone guiding 3,000 lbs. of steel at 65 mph 3 ft. away from me to be doing it in a responsible and safe manner too. I can tell you that is not happening. I can't remember how many close calls on the highway I've had in 42 years of driving. All of the laws, fees and tests concerning this have done nothing to eliminate the irresponsible or stupid..

I'd beg to differ Sir. Simply look at the advancements in Vehicle Safety Technology in the past 42 years you've been driving that is protecting us from all these fools on the road.

What is protecting us from all the fools now who want to Conceal Carry? The Training/Application Process Filter? I think of it this way. What if there was NO Drivers License Training at all?

If tomorrow 50% more of the population were carrying, the firearm injury/death rate would jump up to meet the per captia ratio. So would the regulations and are safety measures/technology to keep innocent bystanders from being hurt or killed by fools.

 

[Leadfoot]

Tbone, while I empathize with what you're saying, by your logic, we should just abolish all traffic laws, safety standards, and drivers licenses.. since they aren't doing anything to reduce accidents and stupidity on the highway.

C'mon, do you really believe that?

 

[TomTerrific]

I have had the 1 to 2 hour renewal class in the past. I paid my money and got my piece of paper. What a waste of time. I've also suffered through sitting in on a basic class before. I think my snoring was disturbing the ones taking the class... I wouldn't mind taking a more advanced class. Actually, I'd rather have half a day of legal class and some one on one time spent with a shooting coach.

The three renewal classes I took were all at least four hours long, including shooting.

 

[tbone]

advancements in Vehicle Safety Technology in the past 42 years

That is not concerning the driver. The advancements in VST have improved my protection level in the event that I am involved with an irresponsible or stupid driver but it hasn't eliminated the irresponsible or stupid driver. Nothing but death will. Hopefully, I will not be involved.
Sometimes I think there is no requirement for a drivers license with the violations that I see. The drivers I observe certainly has no clue concerning the traffic laws.

we should just abolish all traffic laws, safety standards, and drivers licenses.. since they aren't doing anything to reduce accidents and stupidity on the highway

I said nothing of the sort. You have elected to infer this from my statements. I said that the above mentioned devices have done nothing to eliminate the irresponsible and stupid not that they were not necessary. Certainly traffic laws are needed to bring order to what could certainly be chaos. Driving is a privilege and one has to pay for a license that can be revoked for serious violations of the traffic laws.
I stand by my statement that no amount of laws, licenses or safety standards will eliminate the irresponsible or the stupid for either driving or carrying firearms.
Carrying a firearm is a right. One that can be denied to certain felons who are probably carrying anyway.

 

[Leadfoot]

I totally agree that no amount of legislation, regulation, regurgitation, subluxation or any variation will eliminate irresponsibility or stupidity.

I also understand that gun laws are a slippery slope, but I firmly believe that some regulation is necessary and makes good common sense.

Also, I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion so far by keeping it civil and not resorting to the usual name calling, (I don't count being called a potential Brady employee), or mayhem that seems to always spiral out of control on these type of threads.

By the way, where in the 2nd amendment does it say anything about felons being denied from owning firearms?

 

[Hitman]

The advancements in VST have improved my protection level in the event that I am involved with an irresponsible or stupid driver but it hasn't eliminated the irresponsible or stupid driver.

Were not talking about eliminating stupid people, were talking about having at least SOMETHING as a filter to protect responsible individuals from irresponsible individuals. VST currently protects both parties from themselves and others.

For carrying of firearms there is the same kind of protection/filter. Application and Training Process. That's it.

Think if it evolved the same way. Everyone carries firearms, so now we all walk around with Kevlar on as well.

 

[Mac204]

I'd rather have it kind of like Continuing Medical Education credits are given. I mean, some people go to all sorts of classes for tactics and use of force and what not. Why can't those classes count towards classes and quals for CHP renewals?

 

[W1nds0rF0x]

I'd rather have it kind of like Continuing Medical Education credits are given. I mean, some people go to all sorts of classes for tactics and use of force and what not. Why can't those classes count towards classes and quals for CHP renewals?

Excellent idea. Change the renewal to a 1 or 2 hour instruction class every 4 years PLUS have a certain # of targets/year date stamped and signed by the geek on duty at whatever range you goto.

 

[ejt1469]

public safety should be our main concern

How much liberty are we willing to forfeit in the name of safety? Does requiring a permit to “bear” arms infringe our 2A rights (I think it does), but since it is “reasonable” we’re ok with it? How much infringement is OK? Viva Arizona, Vermont, Alaska, and soon Colorado!

http://www.nraila.org/maps/rtc.jpg

 

[JadeRaven]

How much liberty are we willing to forfeit in the name of safety? Does requiring a permit to “bear” arms infringe our 2A rights (I think it does), but since it is “reasonable” we’re ok with it? How much infringement is OK? Viva Arizona, Vermont, Alaska, and soon Colorado!

http://www.nraila.org/maps/rtc.jpg

 

[geauxshootin]

Many do not realize that there are several different versions of the concealed class that came out of the legal changes last year. You do not have to take the traditional class! The Personal Protection outside the home class with an additional child safety portion is one option. The full course is two days with the advanced portion included. The advanced portion alone has 5 to 7 hours of range time! If you do not need / want to take a traditional renewal class because you know that material, take a more advanced class.
The other option for the class is the NRA Basic Pistol with the addition of the LA law and child safety portions. This one would be longer than the normal nine hour class ( should be 11 hours ).

A large portion of CHP holders do not want to take a two day class and many would not take a nine hour one if they did not have to. I think making a CHP holder do some type of training every five years is better than not.