im on the fence

[Rainsdrops]

http://www.wafb.com/story/30336548/parents-arrested-after-4-year-old-brings-loaded-gun-to-school

basically a 4 year old get hold of his parents pistol, brings it to school and shows it off

The parents are being charged with a misdemeanor.
the parents probably were irresponsible with the firearm (innocent until proven guilty) But are they any different, than individuals,
that keep a loaded gun in their vehicles and leave that vehicle unlocked. a few years ago, a guy kept loaded guns, in an unlocked gun cabinet. one day he came home and they were gone. He admitted that he had didnt lock the door. wouldn't they be considered irresponsible too? could they be charged, if that firearm was used in a crime.

I'm in the country (houma / schriever / thibodaux area) . its not uncommon for me to pull up at friends home, and find his kids outside shooting skeet, or cans in the bayou.
I think I was 8 or 9 when i got my first gun from my parents. around 12-13 my friends and I were shooting unsupervised all the time. In high school, many of my friends would grab their guns, jump in the boat and head to the camp, for a weekend duck hunt, unsupervised. so when does it become a crime?

what do you guys think, should society enforce firearm responsibility laws? please examples of situations that should be enforced

 

[Vermiform]

Growing up, as far back as I can remember, I knew where the guns were in the house and knew not to touch them by myself, EVER. If I ever wanted to see or handle any of them, all I had to do was ask and my dad would quickly, enthusiastically clear them and let me hold them.

If a 4 year old got ahold of his parents pistol and took it to school, then IMHO a misdemeanor is TOO LIGHT! You teach your kids about firearms at an early age and you lock the firearms up until they are old enough to know better. At 4 years old my daughter knew not to touch them and to come find an adult if she saw one out. Even though at that age she would not have touched one, I simply would not have left one where she had access to it.

 

[Rainsdrops]

what if you teach them and the child disobeys you. I do believe some parents of drugs dealers, taught the otherwise.
unfortunately we have good parents, with bad kids. dunno if its chemical or mental, but some kids are effing bad, and sneaky.

Kinda why Im asking. if we have our guns in the home, and raise our kids not to touch, but have one of those sneaky kids, what then?
Just asking for member opinions, not trying to goat an argument

 

[Vermiform]

what if you teach them and the child disobeys you. I do believe some parents of drugs dealers, taught the otherwise.
unfortunately we have good parents, with bad kids. dunno if its chemical or mental, but some kids are effing bad, and sneaky.

Kinda why Im asking. if we have our guns in the home, and raise our kids not to touch, but have one of those sneaky kids, what then?
Just asking for member opinions, not trying to goat an argument

Absolutely not trying to argue either.

I believe I am solely responsible for anything my 4 year old does with a firearm. She's 9 now but I still feel the same way.

I think parents that have sneaky kids are fully aware that they cannot be trusted. If not, they are bad parents. I also believe the line blurs as they get older and into their teens, but the 4 year old that showed up to school with a pistol? His parents need jail time.

 

[SpeedRacer]

I absolutely hold them responsible. A 4 year old should not have access to a loaded firearm, period. My kids (3 and 7) probably know more about and respect firearms more than most adults. And there still is not a single gun in my house they have access to. How would you feel if the kid had accidentally shot himself or another student?

 

[Rainsdrops]

I agree they are responsible. If the same kid accessed the same firearm that was kept in an unlocked vehicle the parent would still be responsible in my opinion. I'm wondering why we don't hold all irresponsible gun owners accountable. Shouldn't everyone be expected to secure their firearms and be held accountable if they do not?

 

[jjoker16]

Growing up, as far back as I can remember, I knew where the guns were in the house and knew not to touch them by myself, EVER. If I ever wanted to see or handle any of them, all I had to do was ask and my dad would quickly, enthusiastically clear them and let me hold them.

If a 4 year old got ahold of his parents pistol and took it to school, then IMHO a misdemeanor is TOO LIGHT! You teach your kids about firearms at an early age and you lock the firearms up until they are old enough to know better. At 4 years old my daughter knew not to touch them and to come find an adult if she saw one out. Even though at that age she would not have touched one, I simply would not have left one where she had access to it.

^^^^This 100%! This how I was raised and this is how my kids are raised. Even though my son knows not to touch daddy's guns, they are always kept safe and locked up.

Gun safety is very serious, and even with children that know the rules, the adult/owner has a responsibility to keep them away from thieves and little fingers.

 

[Vermiform]

I agree they are responsible. If the same kid accessed the same firearm that was kept in an unlocked vehicle the parent would still be responsible in my opinion. I'm wondering why we don't hold all irresponsible gun owners accountable. Shouldn't everyone be expected to secure their firearms and be held accountable if they do not?

I understand your question and see where you are going. I would say generally no, but every situation is different. If I leave an unattended, locked and loaded 1911 on the hood of my car at a playground then I should/would be held responsible. Under the seat with the doors locked? Nope.

Edited to add: My 9mm stays locked in a console vault, but I don't fault anyone for having one out of site in a locked car.

 

[Request Dust Off]

To see a 4 year old be able to do that is an epic fail on the part of the parents.

I agree they are responsible. If the same kid accessed the same firearm that was kept in an unlocked vehicle the parent would still be responsible in my opinion. I'm wondering why we don't hold all irresponsible gun owners accountable. Shouldn't everyone be expected to secure their firearms and be held accountable if they do not?

what do you guys think, should society enforce firearm responsibility laws? please examples of situations that should be enforced

Yes. We should have as a society laws and rules to conform to and live by. At what point my fears overrule your rights or my lack of responsibility affects your rights or safety is where it gets tricky. Some people have neighbors that don't want them shooting on their land because it might be unsafe no matter what precautions are taken. Some people think they should be able to shoot on their property now matter how dangerously they do it because it is their property. So disagreements will happen on what is allowed within the laws as is.

In my case I have safes and believe in locking everything up. My kids are good to go and have been since an early age about guns. So I can leave guns out in theory. That does not cover what happens if someone visits or breaks in. So the safest thing is to lock up everything to cover worst case scenarios. I have a nephew with down syndrome and never know when he may come over when I am not home, so that is one example that exist for me. Other adults would be home but they should not have to deal with what I may have left out of the safe.

I have not come to a conclusion as to what standard we need to impose on others as it would need to be all emcompassing for me to 'put it out there'. At the point we begin to transfer blame and include guilt is a slippery slope. We have all seen that it is hard to provide for every possible scenariao and even if very clearly spelled out sooner or later something falls into a gray area. One example would be how does someone prove my safe was either left open by me or a thief figured out the combination and should it even matter. Should it even matter that 2 criminals broke into my home and found a box of 7.62 x 39 that was used in a crime? How does one prove what ammo is used for what? If your gun is taken from your person in a robbery should be held accountable for all future actions with the gun or should you die trying to keep the weapon in your control? If I break into your safe does that make you still at fault because somebody thinks you should also have had a dog, alarm and some other level of security not to mention you should have bought a better safe than you did? Should the guys that posted the videos I watched on youtube of how to defeat your safe be included in the blame? The 'FACT' that you should have foreseen all of this and dismantled your weapons into 2 parts, each in separate safes and kept the ammo in a separate safe or better yet a 3rd location is what would be another argument as to why you didn't take reasonable step to prevent this from happening. Of course not every case get this ridiculous but sometime things do.

Reasonable laws should apply - but defining reasonable is the issue. Then it will get or already is politicized.

 

[Persecutor]

Absolutely yes they should be charged. And I think misdemeanor grade is appropriate. If the gun had been discharged, either intentionally or accidentally, then they would be facing felony grade charges. Allowing a 4 year old access to a firearm is criminal negligence, no question. When the case gets to the DA, they can take a very close look at the circumstances, and consider all the factors y'all have discussed above, and determine the severity of their action/inaction and arrange an appropriate punishment.

Among other things, the parents would be required to successfully complete firearms safety training, and possibly other parenting skills programs. This is an area that I am very familiar with and RESPONSIBLE firearm ownership, and parenting, would hopefully be the result.

 

[Old_Demon]

Just for clarification the parents have been charged. The 4 year old saw the .22 gun in the parents car and stuck it in his backpack.