Legalities of fighting the evil in the world.

[kingfhb]

I have noticed a number of U.S. Citizens that have traveled outside of the United States to fight for foreign powers against the evil that exists in those operational areas. My question is, what are the legalities of traveling to these countries to, in a sense commit sanctioned murder or possible treason (depending on the situation) for siding with a foreign power (even though it would be in line with operational forces in that theater)?

I know there are private contractors that can be hired internationally, and they are held to the laws of the United States, as I would assume those traveling to these foreign countries would be as well... however, they are under no binding legal document or employer allowing that service from United States based companies. So are they then NOT bound to the law of the United States? I would assume they would also have no backing or fall-back to the United States should something happen to them unless they could seek refuge at a U.S. embassy as a U.S. citizen (providing one is still operational in those theaters as well).

I would also assume that if you're caught in an area where the United States does decide to intervene, you could get caught in the crossfire. I read recently in a book about the organizing and forming of Delta Force that during Operation Eagle Claw, the General's briefed Carter on the steps of rescuing the hostages. During the brief, Carter asked about collateral damage... the Generals explained that they would send in Delta... ANYONE that is holding a weapon would be killed immediately ("taken out" as he put it)... even those running away. They went on to explain that during the operation, it would be understood and expected that members of the Security teams that were also taken hostage would inevitably pick up weapons or stand up against their captors, overpower them and take their weapons and attempt to assist in the operation... they would be "Taken Out" as well. Delta was by no means going to take the time to make sure everyone with a weapon was indeed hostile... so they were going in to clean house and bring the hostages home. When you initially think about it... it sounds messed up... but then once you ponder on it for a minute... it's BAD ASS!!

Anyway.... I was just wondering what the repercussions are for taking such actions to battle evil around the globe, not as part of a private contracting entity... but as a lone volunteer (which isn't exactly what you would be... you would need SOME kind of information prior to heading over there... if you had any brains that is).

 

[Armed Mage]

I was actually recently looking into becoming a volunteer fighter for the Kurdish YPG and got in contact with their recruiters on facebook. They sent me a long canned message back detailing what they required and the logistics of getting over there ( I can copy and paste it here if anyone's interested to read it).

Main reason I decided not to go anytime in the near future is because was from what they described it sounds practically like a one-way trip. I thought I would be committing to a minimum of 6 months or so then be able to go home like a rotating military deployment, but they won't let anyone leave until ISIS is completely driven out of Kurdistan, which means I could be stuck there for years. I understand they need their volunteers to be dedicated but that is just too hard of a commitment for me at this point in my life. If I ever do decide to do something like this in the future it would definitely have to be with other American vets I can trust, which is why I'd really love to speak in-depth with a westerner who has already fought for them over there.

 

[323MAR]

I would like to read what the YPG sent you. Please post it!

 

[MOTOR51]

I was actually recently looking into becoming a volunteer fighter for the Kurdish YPG and got in contact with their recruiters on facebook. They sent me a long canned message back detailing what they required and the logistics of getting over there ( I can copy and paste it here if anyone's interested to read it).

Main reason I decided not to go anytime in the near future is because was from what they described it sounds practically like a one-way trip. I thought I would be committing to a minimum of 6 months or so then be able to go home like a rotating military deployment, but they won't let anyone leave until ISIS is completely driven out of Kurdistan, which means I could be stuck there for years. I understand they need their volunteers to be dedicated but that is just too hard of a commitment for me at this point in my life. If I ever do decide to do something like this in the future it would definitely have to be with other American vets I can trust, which is why I'd really love to speak in-depth with a westerner who has already fought for them over there.

So, did you volunteer to fight for THIS country at any time or just for the Kurds?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SVTFreak]

have to be with other American vets I can trust

Sounds like he's a vet.

Although I admit that his screen name sounds more like a world of Warcraft vet than USMil vet. Lol

 

[madwabbit]

not that its my business, but your volunteer efforts could go a lot further for american lives by staying on your own soil. if volunteering is your thing, do it. if kicking terrorists in the nuts is your thing, do it. No reason to hop a flight to do either.

 

[madwabbit]

I have noticed a number of U.S. Citizens that have traveled outside of the United States to fight for foreign powers against the evil that exists in those operational areas. My question is, what are the legalities of traveling to these countries to, in a sense commit sanctioned murder or possible treason (depending on the situation) for siding with a foreign power (even though it would be in line with operational forces in that theater)?

I know there are private contractors that can be hired internationally, and they are held to the laws of the United States, as I would assume those traveling to these foreign countries would be as well... however, they are under no binding legal document or employer allowing that service from United States based companies. So are they then NOT bound to the law of the United States? I would assume they would also have no backing or fall-back to the United States should something happen to them unless they could seek refuge at a U.S. embassy as a U.S. citizen (providing one is still operational in those theaters as well).

I would also assume that if you're caught in an area where the United States does decide to intervene, you could get caught in the crossfire. I read recently in a book about the organizing and forming of Delta Force that during Operation Eagle Claw, the General's briefed Carter on the steps of rescuing the hostages. During the brief, Carter asked about collateral damage... the Generals explained that they would send in Delta... ANYONE that is holding a weapon would be killed immediately ("taken out" as he put it)... even those running away. They went on to explain that during the operation, it would be understood and expected that members of the Security teams that were also taken hostage would inevitably pick up weapons or stand up against their captors, overpower them and take their weapons and attempt to assist in the operation... they would be "Taken Out" as well. Delta was by no means going to take the time to make sure everyone with a weapon was indeed hostile... so they were going in to clean house and bring the hostages home. When you initially think about it... it sounds messed up... but then once you ponder on it for a minute... it's BAD ASS!!

Anyway.... I was just wondering what the repercussions are for taking such actions to battle evil around the globe, not as part of a private contracting entity... but as a lone volunteer (which isn't exactly what you would be... you would need SOME kind of information prior to heading over there... if you had any brains that is).

my family business is govt contracting, and I'm the only one not involved. I dont know enough about it to discuss it intelligently, but I can tell you that they each feel comfortable enough to keep going back. Whatever protections there are, they must be substantial.

 

[olivs260]

Not my thing, but I can see how you'd want to go overseas. They're really in the sauce over there. A whole lot more human suffering than we have back at home. It's definitely a noble cause. But I'd think you would want to get paid, and not just volunteer... But the way I understand it, if you're working for an American contracting company, you'd be a little less restricted than MIL guys, but you'd be taken care of. If you're working independently for a foreign country, I would think you're pretty much on your own if something would happen. But I really don't personally have any experience at all in this arena.

 

[ta2d_cop]

I was actually recently looking into becoming a volunteer fighter for the Kurdish YPG and got in contact with their recruiters on facebook. They sent me a long canned message back detailing what they required and the logistics of getting over there ( I can copy and paste it here if anyone's interested to read it).

Main reason I decided not to go anytime in the near future is because was from what they described it sounds practically like a one-way trip. I thought I would be committing to a minimum of 6 months or so then be able to go home like a rotating military deployment, but they won't let anyone leave until ISIS is completely driven out of Kurdistan, which means I could be stuck there for years. I understand they need their volunteers to be dedicated but that is just too hard of a commitment for me at this point in my life. If I ever do decide to do something like this in the future it would definitely have to be with other American vets I can trust, which is why I'd really love to speak in-depth with a westerner who has already fought for them over there.

So did you make OIF or OEF? What branch? Were you a grunt? What is your experience in a combat zone? What type of training have you had? If your a vet, why not re-up and go SF? Why not get out and catch a contract? Hell, join the French Foreign Legion. Do you speak the language? Know anything about the operational environment? What is their logistical support like?

I don't know what your background is, but strictly and solely based on your post, this little idea sounds naïve and short sighted. If you think all you need is a few vets to go with you and everything will be A OK, your delusional. Things over there are BAD. If you go, you are on your own. No CASEVAC, little to no fire support, the basic infrastructure in that part of the region is deplorable. Not to mention you could potentially be charged criminally here in the US.......... and for what?

There are plenty of opportunities in that part of the world to go "fight evil" or whatever you think you are going to do with way better support as opposed to volunteering to go fight with the Kurds with nothing if your resume supports it. I guessing that is not the case though, although I have been wrong before.

 

[323MAR]

I am willing to bet that the US Government would not want you or anyone else from here to go there independently. If you are captured, then you become a liability. Even if they simply find your body and identify you as an American, then they will behead your corpse and pretend that you were a captive.

 

[kingfhb]

I am willing to bet that the US Government would not want you or anyone else from here to go there independently. If you are captured, then you become a liability. Even if they simply find your body and identify you as an American, then they will behead your corpse and pretend that you were a captive.

This is one of the main reasons I asked the question. I would believe as someone going over there, that is definitely something to take into account... HOWEVER... this is more than likely a bigger issue, considering, if you go there and in order to mask your origin or motherland... do not carry any documentation or identifying items that would tie you to America or being a US citizen. Then if things go bad (which they most surely will), you have no means to PROVE that you're a US citizen... thereby leaving that burden up to any organization that may trust your claims and provide you sanctuary.

I would think also that anyone making that decision and heading over there would pretty much take a few things into account right off the bat...

1. You're not going to receive assistance. Any assistance you MAY receive, which is VERY unlikely since you would not be part of any sanctioned operation or mission (ie. evacuation, rescue, medivac, etc.) would more than likely come with a rather large bill to be provided by the US government at a later date.
2. You might as well just accept the fact going in that it would be a one-way trip.
3. You may want to have a LOT of money if you're going in without any backing or resources. You will need weapons, ammo, rations, gear, etc. Receiving mail once your in theater is going to be a challenge.
4. You will want to be in country (or a close neighbor) for a period of time BEFORE you set out to be part of a movement. Gather resources, plan your means of retreat if needed... secure a means to return home in a pinch... possibly even establish a "home base" of sorts that could be paid in advance for at least a year so if you do need to return, everything you have would still be there. Have a means of "disappearing" if you need to. Not easy... but not impossible, especially in a war torn hectic country.
5. Remember, there are no means for our people to distinguish you from everyone else... and if it comes down to policy changes that send our troops in... or the tables turn on the "rebels" forcing our boys to include them in any action taken, you will be directly on the receiving end of that action. Which could translate to contact, capture, killing and/or interrogation by friendly forces.
6. Be prepared for whatever group you're along side to possibly turn on you in a moments notice. If it happened to our guys over there EVERY DAY... it could happen to some single entity over there to "help".
7. Once you are in place over there (before leaving your "home base"), contact the US embassy in your "home base" country minutes before you leave or before crossing into the theater you're headed to and notify them... just to play it safe and give them a heads-up. Once you do... STAY IN CONTACT with them... they may not sanction what you're doing, and even request your immediate return. Just letting them know you're there will start a whole process that you will want, but could come back to bite you later on. Don't think you're coming back a hero... you may sit in prison for a while after your return (if you make it back)... possibly have a bunch of fines to pay off... who knows what else. But it will be better to keep them in the loop rather than be out there as a possible target on both sides.
8. Another reason you may want to be on your P's and Q's... if you're arrested for some reason by any local authority prior to reaching your destination... you can expect to be on a flight back to the states almost immediately or to remain in custody for some time.
9. So... RESOURCES, LOGISTICS, PLANNING, COMMUNICATION (Don't just go over there with a cell phone!), TRAINING (Don't go over there out of shape!), INTELLIGENCE (Research! Contacts! Communicate with other forces or even US contractors (though you may never get anything from them other than "You need to go home")), LEARN THE LANGUAGE, LEARN THE CUSTOMS, BLEND IN!

Then after it's all said and done.... and you do possibly make it home... be prepared to go through a debriefing process, possible arrest, trial, prison, Litigation, etc. Doing something for our country is one thing... doing something for another is ENTIRELY something else.

I pondered the question to understand the legality of doing it... I would never go "lone wolf" into a theater that has no structure, no law, no outlook on success or even a goal or guideline for a completed mission other than wiping out the enemy... then what??? You fight another group that decides to take up where the others left off? Or get used as a bargaining chip for the group you stood with so they can be placed in a position of power to control the area? Possibly not in line with the government idea that the US has in mind?

It's a volatile situation all around and a powder keg for anyone performing such actions. You'd be rolling the dice on more than just your life... but the lives of anyone you came in contact with while there. "Helping or standing with an American???"... They don't want our help now... unless it's in the form of air support or air drops of weapons, food, or other resources so they can claim the victory themselves.

I wouldn't recommend it... but it would be nice to know what the repercussions or reward would be. Too bad we never got our money from the Kuwait or Saudi Government for the first Gulf war. "We're not mercenaries"... Foreign governments can't pay US forces to fight for them... but they can pay private corporations to pay you to do so... or pay the government to then pay them to!!

 

[Armed Mage]

For those of you asking I served active duty in the Army for 2 years as a helicopter technician. However apparently they don't require combat or military experience and will train you, so long as you're physically capable.

Here's the whole message they sent me:

Thank you for messaging us and your support. There are many volunteers who would like to join the YPG/YPJ. We also accept people with no military experience. You will be trained upon your arrival.

Please read this text carefully!!! If you accept our rules and want 100% join us then buy your ticket as soon as possible and once you have booked your flight ticket, send us a message and we will give you a contact person! Don’t write to us if you don’t want join us, because we have 1000+ messages we are very busy and we have also no time for a lot questions. If you want to donate, visit this site www.heyvasor.com god bless you. DONT BRING ANY MILITARY GEAR!

Firstly, you need a valid passport. All you need is to fly to Doha, Germany or Sweden then to Sulaymaniyah city in Iraqi Kurdistan and then we will pick you up to meet YPG heroes in Rojava, Syria and join them if you are interested, you can join the other Vets fighting IS thugs in Rojava, Syria http://www.sul-airport.com/ there is no payment at all, but u will get whatever you need, bring nothing military or you’ll be stopped at the airport. We will supply you with everything once you get here. Please do not fly to Dubai to get to Sulaymaniah as they will request your return ticket.Once you get out of the airport we will give you a phone number to call and our comrade will pick you up.

The following people may absolutely not come to Rojava and join our ranks: if you have diseases such as diabetes type 1 and 2, high blood pressure, epilepsy, AIDS, drug dependent and other diseases that require treatment or medications that we have not listed here. Family wife and children, disability, gays, lesbian, racists or fascists, underage, extreme tattoos (meaning face tattoos), criminals, thieves, murderers, child molesters, rapists! Thank you for your understanding!

About visa: for all American citizens and Europeans Affairs regarding visa. You will get your Visa at the Airport in Iraq costs 30$USD. You should have this fee in cash.
Please note that citizens of the US, Canada, EU, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan holding a valid passport do not need visas for the Kurdistan Region of Iraq. Read more here http://new.krg.us/services/visa-2/. Some useful information can also be found here http://erbilresidency.com/visaform.php

About Tickets: also you should book your flight from USA or Australia to Europe totally separately. And you ticket from Europe to Iraq again separately, because the Police will stop you. If they check that you will go over to Iraq.

Please Note; Rojava is not a vacation hotspot where you can spend a couple of weeks or months and return right back home. Joining YPG does inherit the obligation to stay in Rojava as long as there are NO MORE barbaric IS members left to stand in Rojava!

All you need is good boots, thermal underwear warm, jacket, winter clothes and the one-way ticket. YPG will give you weapons, foods and clothes all you need but no body protection armor. You can buy your own body armor in Iraq 500$.

Once you've purchased your ticket write to us. We will keep in touch. We will do whatever we can to accommodate those ones wishing to make the journey to Rojava to join the fight against ISIS scumbags.

Sulaymaniyah International Airport: www.sul-airport.com ; www.priceline.com or www.kayak.com.

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY UNTIL YOU HAVE A FLIGHT TICKET!

Respectfully
Lions of Rojava

 

[Armed Mage]

This is one of the main reasons I asked the question. I would believe as someone going over there, that is definitely something to take into account... HOWEVER... this is more than likely a bigger issue, considering, if you go there and in order to mask your origin or motherland... do not carry any documentation or identifying items that would tie you to America or being a US citizen. Then if things go bad (which they most surely will), you have no means to PROVE that you're a US citizen... thereby leaving that burden up to any organization that may trust your claims and provide you sanctuary.

I would think also that anyone making that decision and heading over there would pretty much take a few things into account right off the bat...

1. You're not going to receive assistance. Any assistance you MAY receive, which is VERY unlikely since you would not be part of any sanctioned operation or mission (ie. evacuation, rescue, medivac, etc.) would more than likely come with a rather large bill to be provided by the US government at a later date.
2. You might as well just accept the fact going in that it would be a one-way trip.
3. You may want to have a LOT of money if you're going in without any backing or resources. You will need weapons, ammo, rations, gear, etc. Receiving mail once your in theater is going to be a challenge.
4. You will want to be in country (or a close neighbor) for a period of time BEFORE you set out to be part of a movement. Gather resources, plan your means of retreat if needed... secure a means to return home in a pinch... possibly even establish a "home base" of sorts that could be paid in advance for at least a year so if you do need to return, everything you have would still be there. Have a means of "disappearing" if you need to. Not easy... but not impossible, especially in a war torn hectic country.
5. Remember, there are no means for our people to distinguish you from everyone else... and if it comes down to policy changes that send our troops in... or the tables turn on the "rebels" forcing our boys to include them in any action taken, you will be directly on the receiving end of that action. Which could translate to contact, capture, killing and/or interrogation by friendly forces.
6. Be prepared for whatever group you're along side to possibly turn on you in a moments notice. If it happened to our guys over there EVERY DAY... it could happen to some single entity over there to "help".
7. Once you are in place over there (before leaving your "home base"), contact the US embassy in your "home base" country minutes before you leave or before crossing into the theater you're headed to and notify them... just to play it safe and give them a heads-up. Once you do... STAY IN CONTACT with them... they may not sanction what you're doing, and even request your immediate return. Just letting them know you're there will start a whole process that you will want, but could come back to bite you later on. Don't think you're coming back a hero... you may sit in prison for a while after your return (if you make it back)... possibly have a bunch of fines to pay off... who knows what else. But it will be better to keep them in the loop rather than be out there as a possible target on both sides.
8. Another reason you may want to be on your P's and Q's... if you're arrested for some reason by any local authority prior to reaching your destination... you can expect to be on a flight back to the states almost immediately or to remain in custody for some time.
9. So... RESOURCES, LOGISTICS, PLANNING, COMMUNICATION (Don't just go over there with a cell phone!), TRAINING (Don't go over there out of shape!), INTELLIGENCE (Research! Contacts! Communicate with other forces or even US contractors (though you may never get anything from them other than "You need to go home")), LEARN THE LANGUAGE, LEARN THE CUSTOMS, BLEND IN!

Then after it's all said and done.... and you do possibly make it home... be prepared to go through a debriefing process, possible arrest, trial, prison, Litigation, etc. Doing something for our country is one thing... doing something for another is ENTIRELY something else.

I pondered the question to understand the legality of doing it... I would never go "lone wolf" into a theater that has no structure, no law, no outlook on success or even a goal or guideline for a completed mission other than wiping out the enemy... then what??? You fight another group that decides to take up where the others left off? Or get used as a bargaining chip for the group you stood with so they can be placed in a position of power to control the area? Possibly not in line with the government idea that the US has in mind?

It's a volatile situation all around and a powder keg for anyone performing such actions. You'd be rolling the dice on more than just your life... but the lives of anyone you came in contact with while there. "Helping or standing with an American???"... They don't want our help now... unless it's in the form of air support or air drops of weapons, food, or other resources so they can claim the victory themselves.

I wouldn't recommend it... but it would be nice to know what the repercussions or reward would be. Too bad we never got our money from the Kuwait or Saudi Government for the first Gulf war. "We're not mercenaries"... Foreign governments can't pay US forces to fight for them... but they can pay private corporations to pay you to do so... or pay the government to then pay them to!!

Those are all really good points and stuff I've taken into consideration. The situation over there can change drastically and I would could easily be stuck there without any contacts or support. It's not facing ISIS that would concern me as much as getting caught in the middle of the volatile international politics in a bad way.

 

[323MAR]

I was actually recently looking into becoming a volunteer fighter for the Kurdish YPG and got in contact with their recruiters on facebook. They sent me a long canned message back detailing what they required and the logistics of getting over there ( I can copy and paste it here if anyone's interested to read it).

Main reason I decided not to go anytime in the near future is because was from what they described it sounds practically like a one-way trip. I thought I would be committing to a minimum of 6 months or so then be able to go home like a rotating military deployment, but they won't let anyone leave until ISIS is completely driven out of Kurdistan, which means I could be stuck there for years. I understand they need their volunteers to be dedicated but that is just too hard of a commitment for me at this point in my life. If I ever do decide to do something like this in the future it would definitely have to be with other American vets I can trust, which is why I'd really love to speak in-depth with a westerner who has already fought for them over there.

You also need to consider that great men have died fighting for the good ole USA even with the support of the US Military. As ta2d_cop pointed out, you would not even have the support you may have had when you served. That would decrease your odds of survival.
I could only see myself trying something this crazy if I lost everything(wife included) and got a "death wish." Even then I would think long and hard.

 

[ta2d_cop]

I have a few friends contracting in the region and as bad as you think it is, it's exponentially worse than that near the front lines. They have all the support the U.S. has available for OGAs in the region and it is still abysmal. And they have not been able to tell me half of the whole reality due to limited coms and OpSec but I can read between the lines. Being young and idealistic is one thing, being stupid and acting on an ill-planned suicide mission is something else completely. All the Multi-cam and weekend classes on this site can't prepare you to go it alone, and thats what you'd be doing.... Going it alone.

 

[Armed Mage]

I have a few friends contracting in the region and as bad as you think it is, it's exponentially worse than that near the front lines. They have all the support the U.S. has available for OGAs in the region and it is still abysmal. And they have not been able to tell me half of the whole reality due to limited coms and OpSec but I can read between the lines. Being young and idealistic is one thing, being stupid and acting on an ill-planned suicide mission is something else completely. All the Multi-cam and weekend classes on this site can't prepare you to go it alone, and thats what you'd be doing.... Going it alone.

Don't get the impression that I'm trying to be some rambo wannabe here. While I may have never been in combat I have enough common sense to know it's not a real-life videogame and there's nothing fun about it.

But I will admit that it is perhaps largely my "young idealism" that drove me to consider this, factored with the despair of my personal life in the latter half of last year. It's not about any kind of nationalism but rather the values I hold as an individual. Liberty is one of the things I value most in life, and I hold it as a right for all humanity not just the U.S. The Kurds who have just been trying to defend their homeland have displayed much more respect for liberty and social tolerance than the rest of the middle east, so when I see one of the most backwards bunch of barbarians in history trying to take that from them, it gives me a feeling of needing to walk the talk and take a real stand for what I hold sacred.

I'd have a lot to lose and pretty much nothing to gain aside from acting on my convictions. Thankfully my more rational self has convinced me that it is not the time or place for me to become a martyr, especially when my personal and social life have begun to show more promise here.

 

[323MAR]

I am glad you came to that conclusion. You said that you are still young. Perhaps you should see a recruiter and go back to the US Military. You can at least join a reserve unit.

 

[Armed Mage]

I am glad you came to that conclusion. You said that you are still young. Perhaps you should see a recruiter and go back to the US Military. You can at least join a reserve unit.

I already tried to get into the Air Force reserve/guard a couple years after I got out and they wouldn't take me because of my discharge from the army. It was an honorable discharge but because of my discharge code it would be a difficult uphill battle to get me back in, especially in a combat role. I don't want to discuss the details here since they are complicated and personal.

I'm proud to have served for what little time I did and have respect for others who do, but honestly I no longer have a desire to go back to the military. I don't function well socially in that kind of environment, and have lost pretty much all trust in our government. What really appealed to me becoming a volunteer fighter for the Kurds was that I was choosing a cause to fight in based on my own principles rather than just going to fight whoever the government ordered me to.

 

[jmcrawf1]

Centuries of booger eaters killing each other and you're gonna fly over there and fix it. Because you know....liberty and junk.

Good lord man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[olivs260]

There are much better ways you can contribute to the fight. If it's that important to you, seek out a legit charity that supports them, or ask if there's a way you can send care packages. Email your Congressman and ask if there's anything the ambassador can do. Going over there to get yourself killed won't help. You very well might just wind up as one more dead body, among thousands of others.