longrange, MOA discussion, f/class, et al
- Thread starter derf
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Easier to post here,lol.
Sometimes, a firearm's accuracy will be measured in MOA. This simply means that under ideal conditions, the gun with certain ammunition is capable of producing a group of shots whose center points (center-to-center) fit into a circle, the average diameter of circles in several groups can be subtended by that amount of arc. (E.g.: a "1 MOA rifle" should be capable, under ideal conditions, of shooting an average 1-inch groups at 100 yards, a "2 MOA rifle" a average 2-inch groups at 100 yards, etc.) Some manufacturers such as Weatherby and Cooper offer actual guarantees of real-world MOA performance.
Rifle manufacturers and gun magazines often refer to this capability as "Sub-MOA", meaning it shoots under 1 MOA. This is typically a single group of 3 to 5 shots at 100 yards, or the average of several groups. If larger samples are taken, i.e. more shots per group, then group size typically increases.[3][4]
For example mathematical statistical calculation yields the following accuracy for exactly the same rifle and ammunition combination (standard deviations of every shot from center is 1 MOA):
for 2-shot groups - 1.77 MOA
for 3-shot groups - 2.41 MOA
for 5-shot groups - 3.07 MOA
for 10-shot groups - 3.81 MOA
for 20-shot groups - 4.45 MOA
for 100-shot groups - 5.69 MOA
Sometimes, a firearm's accuracy will be measured in MOA. This simply means that under ideal conditions, the gun with certain ammunition is capable of producing a group of shots whose center points (center-to-center) fit into a circle, the average diameter of circles in several groups can be subtended by that amount of arc. (E.g.: a "1 MOA rifle" should be capable, under ideal conditions, of shooting an average 1-inch groups at 100 yards, a "2 MOA rifle" a average 2-inch groups at 100 yards, etc.) Some manufacturers such as Weatherby and Cooper offer actual guarantees of real-world MOA performance.
Rifle manufacturers and gun magazines often refer to this capability as "Sub-MOA", meaning it shoots under 1 MOA. This is typically a single group of 3 to 5 shots at 100 yards, or the average of several groups. If larger samples are taken, i.e. more shots per group, then group size typically increases.[3][4]
For example mathematical statistical calculation yields the following accuracy for exactly the same rifle and ammunition combination (standard deviations of every shot from center is 1 MOA):
for 2-shot groups - 1.77 MOA
for 3-shot groups - 2.41 MOA
for 5-shot groups - 3.07 MOA
for 10-shot groups - 3.81 MOA
for 20-shot groups - 4.45 MOA
for 100-shot groups - 5.69 MOA
First off I didn't want to fill up your sale thread with OT stuff, but, here goes.
Now I'm even more confused. Break it down for me. Your group is 3 shots. Where does the 2.41MOA come into the calculation?
Second, I was taught that you measure the widest part of the shot group and subtract the bullet size. So if your whole group is 1" edge to edge and you shooting 308 then your MOA at 100 yards is about .62.
If that is the case then your .25 MOA group would measure .558 edge to edge, right?
It does. A 1/4 MOA group at 100yds. for a .30 caliber would measure .558" (.25" + .308") across at the farthest outside point of the farthest holes from each other. USUALLY the minimum grouping for determining the capabilities of a rifle is a 5 shot group. Not taking anything away from Longrange's rifle here.....that's still pretty good grouping for a factory rifle. However, every bolt action I've ever bought (except .22lr's) would shoot three shot groups like that at 100yds at some point.
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Derf, you are correct , the grouping measurement @100yrds from outside to outside is actually .25" as you can see from the 1/4 inch squares, so using your calculations from ctc, the group is .194" i just didnt think i needed to go into too much detail on this nor make it a Techie thing,lol.
If i want to get real Technical this Rifle is a 4SOA shooter, (thats seconds of angle, or 1/16 of an MOA x 4)
The 2.41 you quoted is the general numbers pertaining to MOA... nothing to do with this rifle directly.
If i want to get real Technical this Rifle is a 4SOA shooter, (thats seconds of angle, or 1/16 of an MOA x 4)
The 2.41 you quoted is the general numbers pertaining to MOA... nothing to do with this rifle directly.
.250" center to center would be .558" outside to outside. Now subtract one bullet diameter. .250". Same thing.
If your outside to outside with a .308 was exactly an inch, your grouping would be .69"
Man that's an accurate rifle.
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One of my rifles is a solid 1/2 - 3/4 MOA gun depending on the bullet (hunting gun). I once shot a .185 center to center group at 100 yards with it. That doesn't mean that it is a sub- 1/4 MOA gun. One 3 shot group means nothing at all. I would want to see no less than five groups (shot back to back without "culling" any). That would let me know the gun shoots.
well heres my caliper on the grouping @ .520 Outside to Outside so she is indeed a 1/4" moa rifle... and damn Rit, where do you find rifles like this all the time? gimme the hookup!
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That's a pretty good miniature American quarter if those are 1/4" squares!!! A quarter measures .955" in diameter.
well heres my caliper on the grouping @ .520 so she is indeed a 1/4" moa rifle... and damn Rit, where do you find rifles like this all the time? gimme the hookup!
They've all been Remingtons, but then again, perhaps I'm just lucky.
I meant 1/2 smarty,lol geesh. was spose to be .25 from ctc was rough, but since its technical i gave the caliper,lol
still stand by my original posting, its a Damn 1/4" MOA gun,lol.
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still means she can possibly shoot a 1" MOA @400 yrds... so anyone want to post a target of their 400yrd 1" group id love to see it. maybe 2" group @ 800 yrds? anyone? 2.5" @ a grand gets you the New world record, so lets see some paper!! git-r-done!!
Just messin, sure the sun shines on a dogs ass some days, but theres a reason only Weatherby will guarantee a 1.5" grouping @100yrds on a 400.00 rifle... its not that easy to manufacture a gun that percise... thats why Remington doesn't do it even on their,"Tactical" rifles, on avg. a sporter remington rifle will give you a 2" group at 100yrds out of the box. Sure there are exceptions, but for every Remington that will do a 1"MOA... there are as many Weatherby's that do a 1/2"MOA.
of course this is just my Opinion, and is very open to argument, lol.
Just messin, sure the sun shines on a dogs ass some days, but theres a reason only Weatherby will guarantee a 1.5" grouping @100yrds on a 400.00 rifle... its not that easy to manufacture a gun that percise... thats why Remington doesn't do it even on their,"Tactical" rifles, on avg. a sporter remington rifle will give you a 2" group at 100yrds out of the box. Sure there are exceptions, but for every Remington that will do a 1"MOA... there are as many Weatherby's that do a 1/2"MOA.
of course this is just my Opinion, and is very open to argument, lol.
LongRange.........really, instead of selling that thing you need to bring it out to Palo Alto and come shoot F-T/R with us. Hell, 1/4 moa will be 1.5" at 600 yds, even if it will only shoot 1/2 moa (GASP) then you would still be shooting a 600-60x!! Over a few weekends you'll make a lot more than what you're selling it for!
Tell you what, if you come and shoot and score a 600-60x (which is 1/2moa) then I'll buy the rifle from you for $1500.00 AND the ammo that you had to shoot the match with.
Tell you what, if you come and shoot and score a 600-60x (which is 1/2moa) then I'll buy the rifle from you for $1500.00 AND the ammo that you had to shoot the match with.
Awful light barrel to shoot match with tho. I spose i can give it a try, whens the next match and i do get to use standard optics yes?
June 6th and yes. Any kind of scope is sufficient. 66 rounds, front bi-pod, rear bean or sandbag, and your match fee ($10-15). You get first place in F-T/R (regardless of score) and I'll even pay your match fee back to you.
Now I have even more questions. Why is your parted out price cheaper than your package price?
Wouldn't a CTC group of .528 be smaller than two 308 holes next to each other? 308+308=616, right?
Do you measure the hole in the paper or the dark colored parts of the paper where the bullet struck?
well the parted out price doesnt include the bipod or the rifle case or the 2 boxes of ammo. that totals more than 100 smackers.
as for the measurements, i went by the actual holes, i believe thats industry standard but i may be mistaken. The pics with Caliper are there to see, its not like im hiding anything or full of ****, so im not sure the question?
I measured Outside to Outside for the .520 not sure center to center , spose i can do it if u want.
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