Looking for Info on handgun groupings.

[BenCarp27]

I was on another forum, and a newer member shared that he had bought his first handgun. He was unsure whether he was doing good or not, and at that point he shared that he had shot a 5" group at 25 yards, off-handed.
Now, I've been shooting a while, and I know some members here are excellent competition shooters, but as a regular shooter that doesn't have a knack for superior marksmanship, I would say this is excellent. Especially for a new shooter. Which is the comment I was going to share with him.
Unfortunately, a bunch of people starting chiming in that it wasn't "that bad", and writing things such as " you get proficient over time".
And it got me wondering, "Hell, am I that bad of a shot? Have my perceptions of standards been low?"
Just wondering what the other shooters on here considered a "good" grouping. To me, 5" at 25 yds off-handed is pretty solid shooting.

 

[Request Dust Off]

I find in general some factors that affect group size are not mentioned. How many shots would be the first question. Speed, lighting and even target would be factors.

5" at 25 would be great for a new shooter. Next issue might be how the shots are stringing.

 

[BenCarp27]

I was just thinking that 5" was about the size of the iPhone I was holding. To me, putting my shots in a target of that size 75 feet away with my offhand is a pretty decent shot. It's not competition ready by no means, but I don't have the eyes for that anyways. As far as defensive shooting, I think that's more than enough to hit center mass multiple times.
Like I said, people's response more or less caught me off guard and had me second guessing myself.

 

[JBP55]

Five years ago I could put 50 rounds in a 5" group at 25 yards which I think is good for the average non competition shooter.
Due to vision and other health issues my groups have grown in recent years.

 

[returningliberty]

If you can hit the target @ 75' you're doing great. Don't let anyone fool you, most people at the range can't. Most people on this board can't get a 5" diameter group @ 25 yards.

 

[SpeedRacer]

It also depends on the gun, sights and goal of the shooter. For example, my pistols are chosen an set up for self-defense use. Glocks with sights designed for fast sight acquisition. They will be harder to shoot accurately at longer distances, but better for self-defense situations. Also, 90% of my practice is done within 10yds, with a focus on getting adequate hits at a rapid pace. Point is, my long range marksmanship is a lower priority and my groupings show it. 5" at 25yds would be fine with me.

 

[JBP55]

It also depends on the gun, sights and goal of the shooter. For example, my pistols are chosen an set up for self-defense use. Glocks with sights designed for fast sight acquisition. They will be harder to shoot accurately at longer distances, but better for self-defense situations. Also, 90% of my practice is done within 10yds, with a focus on getting adequate hits at a rapid pace. Point is, my long range marksmanship is a lower priority and my groupings show it. 5" at 25yds would be fine with me.

Same here, most of the rounds I fired with a new G19 Today were within 25'. I did shoot 51 rounds at 50' with a new Glock 19 Today and 50 of 51 were inside 5"'s and 1 round was out by approximately 1/2". This was at 50', not 75'.

 

[Cochise]

Damn, this thread is making me feel like I need to buy some glasses and a whole lotta practice ammo.....

 

[Hardballing]

Rule of thumb for your buddy is a 4" group, unsupported at 25 yards is OUTSTANDING accuracy from a service grade handgun. And that is without a time limit.

5" ain't too shabby either imo.

My shooting, when done at that distance (and my eyes ain't what they used to be either) is to be happy, at speed, to hit "minute of head" at 75'. Slowfire at 25 yards I'd be happy as punch with 5" side to side. Get that somewhat routinely, but also routine to open it up with a flyer or two hitting an ear, or forehead, or chin, or...

Just my .02.

 

[swamper]

I'm in the same boat as Speed. My ability at 25 yards is lacking. I have been making an effort to get some range time at 25 yards. I haven't gotten to where I want or need to be, but I'm getting there.

The 7 ring on these is a little over 5". I was using a white B-27 target as a backer for these. The corners of the target are just above the clavicle area of that target. I wasn't timing it, but the max time between shots was somewhere around 5 secs. give or take a couple.

 

[Tulse Luper]

5" is great.

The people on most forums are full of ****ing horseshit. That goes double if the site is dedicated to some sort of manly activity (football, cars, guns).
And you can expect a quadrupling of horseshit if the subject matter is sportbikes, car audio, weightlifting or anime.

 

[BenCarp27]

I'm with the rest of you guys. 5 inches at 25yds off-handed is good shooting in my book. To be honest, I don't think I could consistently do it with the pistols I own.

It just caught me off guard, because some of the members responding were individuals whose opinion I had learned to give some value to. It had me wondering if I was that below PAR.

I'm very comfortable with my shooting for defensive purposes. I more or less shared this to see what the general standards were with the members here.

+1 on most forum members being full of b*******. I've met more retired special forces, scout snipers and SWAT instructors online than I've ever met in the real life military or law enforcement worlds. Like I said, though, some of the members in the discussion have a pretty good track record of being on base with valuable information. I just thought I'd check to make sure I wasn't blind to an entire aspect of the shooting world.

 

[Tulse Luper]

There are some longish USPSA classifiers. They are done with time as a consideration. It would be interesting to hear from comp shooters.

 

[1911Dave]

Hell go to 1911forum.com if you think that's bad. Seems everyone there is a bullseye shooter with the crap they say.

 

[1911Dave]

And don't tell a moderator there he's full of ****... even when you prove it.



.

Yeah they are quite ridiculous over there. Makes this forum seem like its run by kittens.

 

[swamper]

Seems like I remember Awerbuck saying something about 2 shots on a pie plate at 25 yards form the holster. Can't remember the exact time though. I'm remembering it being 2 seconds for some reason.

 

[Tulse Luper]

That is what's needed to be able to take anything posted on forums even semi-seriously. Some sort of standardization.

And, Ben, go back to that forum and ask if anyone was doing it from the holster and/or with a reload. You'll probably get blank stares.

I'm gonna put some time in with a P7 on Monday. I should get a single 9mm hole at 25 yards. If it's any bigger, I'll let you guys know.

 

[troy_mclure]

With my ultradot scoped ruger .44 I can nail the steel plates(6-8") at 25 yards pretty rapidly(2-3 sec per shot) and not miss, I practice only at 25yd pretty much with it. With a rest(monopod) I can slow fire a soda can for 5 of 6 shots.
But I've put a lot of time in my loads and shooting with the gun. It's a primarily hunting gun, so my small group size is unimportant.
With my sig trailside .22 I can hit the 3" spinner at 25 yards 8 of 10 times, but .22s are real easy.

 

[Sin-ster]

Group shooting is a discipline unto itself. Never, ever, ever forget that and get down on yourself-- you can be VERY good at speed or in "combat shooting" and still struggle with it.

5" @ 25 yards with factory ammo is darn good. I'm not sure that I could step up cold and deliver that with anything but the few guns I've shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through, and even then, a flier could ruin the whole thing.

Personally speaking, as far as being a well rounded shooter is concerned, I'd rather be able to run a clean Bill Drill in under 5 seconds than hold a 3" group at 25 yards. The first task is much more useful and requires far more skillsets to perform consistently, although the latter feat is arguably more challenging in terms of repeatable precision.

 

[Tulse Luper]

Be careful... be VERY careful.

That bitch will suck you in, seduce you beforeyou realize what's happening, and the next thing you know you'll be selling your blood to pay for one. And when that doesn't raise enough capital, you'll think long and hard about selling your Gray P30.

You'll lose sleep, poring over HKPro.com and parkcitiestactical.com, looking for a good deal. You'll find one... and sell your other P30 to pay for four P7 magazines. But, by God, you'll have it, and eagerly await the first opportunity to take it to the range... whereupon you will discover that it was designed to prevent ill-trained German cops from shooting themselves, and was never intended to be shot much at all (German cops shoot less than 50 rounds annually for "qualification").

Trust me on this... been there, done that, got four T-shirts.

.

It's way too late for warnings. I've a P7 PSP and an M8. Harballing found the M8 on Cabela's used gun list. They had no idea what they had. The must have identified it as a PSP. I bought it for lint and peanuts. It's my one and only gun deal story. Jmcrawf1 is ultimately at fault. He had a PSP at one of the HK meets. That's all it took. And the Gray P30 was sold. I'm all LEM, all the time now.

Group shooting is a discipline unto itself. Never, ever, ever forget that and get down on yourself-- you can be VERY good at speed or in "combat shooting" and still struggle with it.

5" @ 25 yards with factory ammo is darn good. I'm not sure that I could step up cold and deliver that with anything but the few guns I've shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through, and even then, a flier could ruin the whole thing.

Personally speaking, as far as being a well rounded shooter is concerned, I'd rather be able to run a clean Bill Drill in under 5 seconds than hold a 3" group at 25 yards. The first task is much more useful and requires far more skillsets to perform consistently, although the latter feat is arguably more challenging in terms of repeatable precision.

Nice summation.