M4 vs. AK-47: Is U.S. Army Outgunned in Afghanistan?

[Renegade]

Interesting article... What do you guys think???

Despite the ages-old rifles in Taliban hands, reports suggest our soldiers may be outgunned in Afghanistan's hills. To counter, the Army plans a slew of upgrades to curtain weapons -- and several entirely new guns.

Taliban fighters in Afghanistan are attacking U.S. Army soldiers with AK-47s, while the army relies upon the M4 Assault rifle. The AK-47 uses a larger bullet, which leads to more kickback upon firing. Some reports indicate that the U.S. Army is looking to upgrade the weapons being used in Afghanistan to larger caliber guns.

An AP report published over the weekend in Army Times argued that the M4 rifle's light bullets lack sufficient velocity and killing power in long-range firefights. The report states that the U.S. is considering a switch to weapons that fire a larger round, one largely discarded in the 1960s.

"What's the right caliber?" asks Jim Battaglini, executive vice president with Colt Defense and a retired major gen with the U.S. Marine Corps. "The debate has been ongoing for over 40 years, with pros and cons for all options being considered."

Factbox: The M4 and AK-47 Compared

The 7.62mm round in the AK-47 is heavier and larger than the 5.56mm caliber bullet in the M4, and can therefore fly further on average. But Battaglini dismisses reports that the Army is considering rearming soldiers in Afghanistan. "On the battlefield, there are no reported operational issues with the M4. It's the weapon of choice in Iraq, and still the desired weapon in Afghanistan," he told FoxNews.com.

Colonel Douglas Tamilio, project manager for Soldier Weapons in the Army's Program Executive Officer (PEO) Soldier division, downplayed the report too, as well as the significance of discussions about adopting larger caliber weaponry.

"You look at the fight you're in and decide, do I need to go back and do that?" But Tamilio is unswerving in his loyalty to the M4, calling it simply better than the Ak-47.

"To me there is no comparison. The M4 is inherently much more accurate than the AK-47," he told FoxNews.com. Tamilio explained that there are far more factors at play in determining the lethality of a weapon than mere caliber.

"We look at the ability of our soldier to incapacitate a target based on the weapon he's carrying, the recoil, the round the weapon is chambered for, what situation the soldier is in, how many rounds can he carry, his training, does he have optics on him ... there are so many variables that determine lethality."

"They're different system, difficult to compare," agreed Daniel Wasserbly, land forces reporter for Jane's Defence Weekly. He points out other differences, such as the shorter barrel in the M4, which makes it somewhat more geared to urban combat and the close-in battles of Iraq than the more open warfare in Afghanistan.

"But all the M4s have fairly advanced optics, which really add to their capabilities," he told FoxNews.com.

Col. Tamilio, who's PEO group is responsible for developing, fielding and sustaining new weapons, explained that the M4 has evolved substantially over the years, and that new upgrades and even new guns planned for this summer should dramatically enhance our soldiers' capabilities.

For one thing, U.S. special forces will be given a new supergun this summer, the XM25 grenade-launcher, which is capable of showering the Taliban with grenades from more than 700 meters away.

To address the issue of snipers, there's the M14EBR, a 7.62 caliber rifle designed to handle the recoil from big bullets better. That gun will be accurate to 800 meters.

"It's not the AK-47s putting a significant threat on our soldiers, it's the sniper rifles," Tamilio said, citing the Soviet era guns capable of killing from 600 to 700 meters away. "We need the ability to answer back to those."

His division took old M14s and made them like new, added new stocks, rails, bipods, and powerful optics to create a new gun.

"It's not a sniper weapon, but it's pretty damn close to it."

PEO also plans enhancements to the M4, adding to the 62 improvements the U.S. Army has made to the M4 since it was released. The Army has over 500,000 M4s in its arsenal.

Tamilio's group has improved the ammunition for the guns, upgrading the standard 855 round to the 8551a, "which strips away the dependency on yaw and made it more consistent." The new rounds should be in guns in Afghanistan this summer, along with barrels 5 oz heavier, for increased sustained fire.

He also cites plans for a new bolt and an improved adapter, called a Picatinny rail, which allows mounting of flashlights, lasers, and so on. Why upgrade a weapon that's "outgunned"? Tamilio flat-out disagrees with the characterization.

"The M4 is getting a bad rep, and it's an unfortunate thing. It's the best weapon in the world today. "

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/25/army-outgunned-afghanistan/?test=latestnews

 

[GIJeaux]

What Colonel Douglas Tamilio said. The US Army is not out-gunned at all.
I think that this comes from people that don't realize that 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 are not the same thing. I still have people say that "The Viet Cong would just take our M60 ammo and shoot it back at us"......Yeah right. They never look past 7.62. The 5.56 in the M4 will hold it's own just fine. Higher quality weapons, higher quality ammuntion and the "Highest" quality soldiers are what matters the most.


I'm through now.
Be good guys.
Al

 

[CloudStrife]

It's a shame, though, that Clinton decided to chop 400k+ M14s in half...

 

[rooster]

I am a big fan of the 7.62x39 round but the 5.56 is fine. The m-4 was not made to be a sniper rifle, thats why they have rem 700 and 50 BMGs. The m-4 is a multi tasking weapon that fill the need in many different situations. Again if I had to choose I'd go with the ak but by no means is one so much better that it really affects the outcome. Ballistic wise, the 7.62x39 is bigger and slower. More nock-down power but range of the 223 is more. Kinda the 9 vs 45 debate.

 

[CloudStrife]

DI aside, I think the M4 weapon itself is far superior to the AK. Lighter, more ergonomic, and modular.

 

[oleheat]

Not sure if this is any indication of anything, but there are some who claim the Taliban would like to have more 5.45 x 39mm rifles instead of 7.62 x 39mm.....

Taliban Seek Rifles with More ‘Punch’?
By David Hambling September 2, 2009 | 5:38 pm | Categories: Af/Pak, Gadgets and Gear, Terrorists, Guerillas, Pirates
One way of finding out what sort of weapons the Taliban favor is to go the usual military route: examine captured arsenals and look for shell casings after a firefight. Or you could just go and talk to the man who apparently sells them their weapons, as Guardian reporter Ghaith Abdul-Ahad recently did. The results were highly instructive.

Abdul-Ahab talked to a man named Hekmat, formerly a shopkeeper but now a wealthy smuggler. Hekmat made his fortune ferrying arms from Central Asia. He also deals in heroin, but prices are down this year, so apparently the real money is in guns. Surprisingly, the hot item is not the plain-vanilla Kalashnikov.

“It’s the Kalakov everyone wants,” the arms dealer tells Abdul-Ahad. “The Taliban like it because it pierces body armor.”

The Kalakov, evidently, is the name the Afghans give to the AK-74, a Russian weapon based on a 5.45mm cartridge. This is confirmed when Hekmat shows the comparatively smaller round for the rifle.

In some ways this should not come as any great surprise. The Soviets designed the 5.45mm round specifically to fight against Western armies who might have body armor, and have upgraded the standard bullets since its introduction in 1974. The original bullet had a mild steel core and a lead tip; a harder steel core was introduced in 1987 and this was enlarged in 1992 to create the 7N10 “improved penetration” round. This will punch through a Kevlar vest, but not hard ceramic inserts.

The AK-74 round has better penetration than the Russian 7.62×39mm round it replaced, as well as improved accuracy. This Japanese video shows that it also penetrates better than a 5.56mm from an M16A1 – but only in wood, which doesn’t tell us anything about armor-piercing properties.


If some Taliban fighters are apparently seeking to abandon the old 7.62 cartridge for a smaller caliber, there’s some irony here: Some commentators have argued that the current NATO 5.56mm — the standard round for the M16 rifle, M4 carbine and M249 light machine gun– is not lethal enough. Arguments about the effectiveness (or lack of it) of the 5.56mm round have been going on forever. Many of these go back to the introduction of the M16 in the 1960s, or are based on dubious “experiments” such as casually firing fifteen rounds into a tethered goat.

The U.S. Army Infantry Center carried out a detailed study of the effectiveness of the 5.56mm cartridge. This was prompted by anecdotal reports from Iraq and Afghanistan that the round “overpenetrated,” punching a hole right through an enemy combatant who was able to continue fighting. The study looked at several different 5.56mm alternatives as well as the NATO 7.62×51mm (.308 Winchester) used in the old M-14; it found no significant differences in effectiveness at “close quarters battle” ranges of up to fifty meters. It concludes that U.S. forces “are still being provided the best performing weapons and ammunition available.”

And if the Guardian report is correct, upgrading the Taliban arsenal with the AK-74 would be expensive. According to Hekmat, a Kalakov that costs $700 in Tajikistan sells for as much as $1,250 in southern Afghan provinces like Helmand. That sounds like a lot of money for a force whose hired help has been dubbed the “$10 Taliban” because of their low rates of pay.


IMHO, the best answer to your original question will probably come from some of the guys here who were stationed there.....

 

[meauxcg]

Not fair !!! I was going to post this!!!!!

 

[oleheat]

After reading what somebody posted earlier, I just hope those a-holes with the International Red Cross don't decide to "remain neutral" and buy the bastards a boatload of AK-74s & 5.45 ammo....

 

[K9CopSGT]

For one thing, U.S. special forces will be given a new supergun this summer, the XM25 grenade-launcher, which is capable of showering the Taliban with grenades from more than 700 meters away.

I have GOT to get one of these!

 

[sylvest]

After reading what somebody posted earlier, I just hope those a-holes with the International Red Cross don't decide to "remain neutral" and buy the bastards a boatload of AK-74s & 5.45 ammo....

The Red Cross here in Uruzgan Province has been teaching the Taliban how to do first aid and perform minor operations to save the lives of wounded fighters. The soldiers are quite pissed about it.

 

[charliepapa]

The Red Cross here in Uruzgan Province has been teaching the Taliban how to do first aid and perform minor operations to save the lives of wounded fighters. The soldiers are quite pissed about it.

I'm pissed too. Maybe we could arrange a *test firing* or a *sales demo* of the XM25 in their direction while class was in session. Bastards.

 

[nickatnite]

Oh snap - 5.45x39 FTW!

Hmmmmm....

 

[sylvest]

I'm pissed too. Maybe we could arrange a *test firing* or a *sales demo* of the XM25 in their direction while class was in session. Bastards.

This is something I have heard the US, Dutch, and Australian soldiers talking about. I actually had this conversation with them all yesterday. Apparently some of them have encountered contact and killed enemy fighters who had Red Cross bandages on them from previous wounds at the time they were killed.

Its hard to fight a war when you only have one life and the enemy has multiples like a video game.

 

[Hitman]

5.56 has been killing the enemy for how many years now?

Sounds like the Army might want to focus on TRAINING!

I know that's the case I see here in front of me all the TIME!

Army Soldiers go to Basic Training, the rifle range, then MAYBE! one more range after that, then go to War....sad....

The Marines focus ALL their money on buying Ammo for the Infantry to train with. There is no shortage of range time for Marine Infantry.

The Army is spending loads of Money to make sure soldiers have nice carpet to walk on when they get home, a Starbucks in every base, a Burger King in every PX, etc.etc.

I ain't blowing smoke here people, this is stuff I've seen and experienced first hand. Some of you know where I work, that should say enough. The Army needs to stop pampering these soldiers and start spending money on TRAINING!

 

[charliepapa]

what happened to the 6.8mm SPC? I thought it was supposed to be the answer to this.

 

[sylvest]

I would still rather see the 5.56 replaced with something that has more knock down power. I know people that have killed many deer with a .22 rifle by shooting them behind the ear. But when the same guy got a .30-06 he killed even more deer and at farther distances.

Im not suggesting we give everyone deer rifles, just using it as a reference. Guys are shooting some long ranges out here. And a 5.56 doesnt hit near as hard at 300m as it does at 50m.

 

[sylvest]

what happened to the 6.8mm SPC? I thought it was supposed to be the answer to this.

$$$$ You know thats all the .gov cares about

 

[oleheat]

F**kin' Red Cross. How can they possibly say with a straight face they are "neutral" in a war with a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION????????? In other words, they have no negative feelings whatsoever towards a group that beheads, uses roadside IEDs, takes hostages, etc, etc, etc......

That makes me sick to my stomach. It's a shame we couldn't send our boys some soft points to use on these pieces on camel dung....

 

[03GeeTee]

I didn't think you could be neutral in the War on Terror. What happened to "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists"?

 

[biggie1447]

It sucks that the US government hampered the military when they signed that agreement to only use fmj for combat weapons. If somebody says that the 5.56 has too little punch has never seen one loaded with a hollow point or balistic tip. Its a game changer there.
I would like to see one of the terrorists get back up after having one shread his vital organs, its kinda like having a small explosive go off inside