Public Service Announcement: NFA Gun Trusts

The Best online firearms community in Louisiana.

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • JCcypress

    Gun Trust Lawyer
    Premium Member
    Rating - 100%
    83   0   0
    Jun 9, 2011
    1,974
    38
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Public Service Announcement: NFA Gun Trusts*

    We all know that NFA items (sound suppressors, SBRs, machine guns, AOWs) are highly regulated by the ATF, correct?

    We all know that possession of these items outside of the strict legal requirements is a terrible idea that can land you in federal prison, correct?

    We also know that these items are expensive, the application process is tedious, and the approval wait times are around 7 to 12 months...

    So, why would you skimp a few bucks and seek registration through a flimsy "Trust" template that you found on the internet or got from Billy Bob at the range?

    I recently received a "trust template" from a BS member, who asked me to look over it. Apparently, this document has been circulated as a "gun trust" and folks are submitting applications for NFA items using it. The document/template was drafted as a standard, boilerplate, living trust and makes absolutely no mention of NFA items. It contained conflicting provisions that would suggest shared ownership and registration of these items between multiple persons and entities. There were no provisions as to who can and can't possess the NFA items, nor how the items would be distributed upon the termination of the trust. There were a series of other inadequacies in the document and frankly, for the purposes of obtaining NFA items, the document is a turd. Do not build your NFA collection on a foundation of turds.

    I'm not saying that if you fill in the blanks and submit the template, that the ATF won't "rubber-stamp" approve it- They are understaffed and overworked, and they are not lawyers. But, I can tell you that these garbage trust templates will fail when put under a microscope. I would not want to be the guy left holding the bag if / when the circumstances change in your own unique situation, or in the manner in which these items are regulated.

    Much like you wouldn't build a $1500 AR and mount a $30 WalMart red dot on it, your gun trust is not the area in which to be stingy. If you needed surgery, you wouldn't start combing the internet for cheap knives to do it yourself, you would call a doctor.

    My advice: If you are thinking of purchasing NFA items, speak with a Louisiana attorney about establishing a valid NFA gun trust.



    * Yes, I am an attorney and I often help my clients establish NFA gun trusts. The above message is not a plug for my services. It is a cautionary notice. The fact that I work with gun trusts does not make these statements any less true. To be fair, there are several other attorneys on this board, besides myself, who can help you with gun trusts and I will gladly give you their contact information upon request.


    ETA: By the way, I am not insinuating that you MUSt have a trust to buy NFA items, but the legal benefits far outweigh the cost.
     
    Last edited:

    olivs260

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 100%
    45   0   0
    Sep 23, 2009
    2,846
    38
    Geismar, LA
    I have a trust that was put together for me by a reputable attorney, but I'm curious- if a member had registered NFA items under a flimsy trust and wanted to transfer them to a proper NFA trust, what would the process be like? Would there be a transfer with new stamps issued, just like if they were purchasing the items again?
     

    JCcypress

    Gun Trust Lawyer
    Premium Member
    Rating - 100%
    83   0   0
    Jun 9, 2011
    1,974
    38
    Baton Rouge, LA
    I have a trust that was put together for me by a reputable attorney, but I'm curious- if a member had registered NFA items under a flimsy trust and wanted to transfer them to a proper NFA trust, what would the process be like? Would there be a transfer with new stamps issued, just like if they were purchasing the items again?

    Assuming the current trust provides for such, I would recommend amending and supplementing the trust with the relevant language and forwarding an updated version to the ATF. This should not require reapplication, new stamps, etc.
     

    SpeedRacer

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 100%
    92   0   0
    Feb 23, 2007
    14,347
    38
    Mandeville, LA
    I had a generic "gun" trust I found on the interweb I had planned on using before I decided to let Joey (JCcypress) handle mine. What I had and what he provided were indeed vastly different, and now looking back at the old one I'm glad I did. I don't play when it comes to anything involving the government and especially the ATF. Get it done right and sleep easy at night. Preferably with a suppressed SBR under your pillow.
     

    Papercutninja

    Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 28, 2012
    7
    1
    Yeah, I often completely ignore the entire point of a thread and then suggest a completely unlicensed person to do exactly what the thread has warned against. I'm sure Debbie is a lovely, intelligent lady, so is my mom but I wouldn't have her draw up a gun trust either.
     

    JadeRaven

    Oh Snap
    Rating - 100%
    60   0   0
    Sep 13, 2006
    4,249
    36
    Metairie
    The whole specific "gun trust" may or may not be necessary, but in Louisiana you really should have an attorney familiar with trusts do your drafting and advising.

    A lot of these internet "trusts" are not even valid trusts. It might fly under the radar but the feds can and will notice one day.
     
    Last edited:

    Gilbee

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 3, 2014
    26
    1
    Denham Springs, LA
    Yeah, I often completely ignore the entire point of a thread and then suggest a completely unlicensed person to do exactly what the thread has warned against. I'm sure Debbie is a lovely, intelligent lady, so is my mom but I wouldn't have her draw up a gun trust either.

    I bet Debby is a notary, which is completely qualified/licensed to construct trusts in the state of Louisiana. Not trying to take a lawyer's bread, but it's common for lawyers to come out vocally stating they are the only source for such documents when a notary can indeed do it, often cheaper. That being said, I'm still on the fence regarding who/where I'll get my trust constructed.
     

    JadeRaven

    Oh Snap
    Rating - 100%
    60   0   0
    Sep 13, 2006
    4,249
    36
    Metairie
    I bet Debby is a notary, which is completely qualified/licensed to construct trusts in the state of Louisiana. Not trying to take a lawyer's bread, but it's common for lawyers to come out vocally stating they are the only source for such documents when a notary can indeed do it, often cheaper. That being said, I'm still on the fence regarding who/where I'll get my trust constructed.

    A notary can do many things, but they can't give you any legal advice.
     

    Gilbee

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 3, 2014
    26
    1
    Denham Springs, LA
    A notary can do many things, but they can't give you any legal advice.

    This is true, but they can draft documents from scratch per your request...that doesn't constitute legal advice so far as I know...A trust by itself is a standard doc; the NFA pieces are what is unique, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of these trusts that are being written for clients by attorneys are being waved around to notaries in the same way JCypress is noting the bad ones are getting waved in his face. If that happens, I don't see why they couldn't use that document as a template for creating a suitable document, assuming the scenario in the original doc are the same as the new scenario...it's what notaries and lawyers do all the time---spend time writing a new doc (or gather it from other sources), then use it over and over at the original cost even though it's now mostly a fill-in-the-blank exercise. Nothing wrong with that, as knowing what to put in which blank is what you are really paying for at that point, and expertise costs money.
     

    Gilbee

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 3, 2014
    26
    1
    Denham Springs, LA
    Because its stealing. If you take one parties Intellectual Property and say you authored it your a thief.

    I'm not sure it works the same way as other written works...IANAL, but with the hundreds/thousands of people out there reusing stock documents and making modifications to existing legal docs created elsewhere for their use, I'm pretty sure someone would have raised that red flag by now and many people would be hosed by this *very* common practice. For the most part, these docs all have specific sections that must exist, so they will definitely look similar regardless of who wrote them if they are competent.
     

    Papercutninja

    Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 28, 2012
    7
    1
    Notaries are not trained to draft documents. They are given a cursory overview of the law and allowed to act in a ministerial capacity in limited matters.

    If you want to trust the drafting of the legal entity that will be the owner and holder of your NFA items worth THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to someone that is not professionally trained in the law, then by all means do so. This is not a personal attack on the lady just on her credentials. Notaries are glorified paralegals, lawyers are lawyers.

    Plus I hear she charges like $600 whereas Jccypress is charging $300 and is an actual attorney. I think I'll pay less for actual professional services than pay more for amateurs.
     

    Gilbee

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 3, 2014
    26
    1
    Denham Springs, LA
    Notaries are not trained to draft documents.

    Yes they are---it's why so few people pass the Louisiana statewide notary exam on the first try...The Louisiana notary program is far different than other states where what you are saying is completely true. You'd be genuinely surprised how far a good notary can take you before you really have to get a lawyer involved, they aren't just for stamping bills of sales when you a buying a car or boat in this state...

    I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest; I suspect that the notion won't gain traction so long as attorneys keep their rates reasonable for such things. $600 is way too much, you're right.
     

    Jim's Firearms

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 15, 2014
    517
    16
    Baton rouge, LA
    Public Service Announcement: NFA Gun Trusts*
    Much like you wouldn't build a $1500 AR and mount a $30 WalMart red dot on it, your gun trust is not the area in which to be stingy. If you needed surgery, you wouldn't start combing the internet for cheap knives to do it yourself, you would call a doctor. My advice: If you are thinking of purchasing NFA items, speak with a Louisiana attorney about establishing a valid NFA gun trust.

    THIS ^^^^ He knows what he is talking about! We send all of our customers to Joseph Cataldie or Mark Garber.
     

    JadeRaven

    Oh Snap
    Rating - 100%
    60   0   0
    Sep 13, 2006
    4,249
    36
    Metairie
    Yes they are---it's why so few people pass the Louisiana statewide notary exam on the first try...The Louisiana notary program is far different than other states where what you are saying is completely true. You'd be genuinely surprised how far a good notary can take you before you really have to get a lawyer involved, they aren't just for stamping bills of sales when you a buying a car or boat in this state...

    I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest; I suspect that the notion won't gain traction so long as attorneys keep their rates reasonable for such things. $600 is way too much, you're right.

    There are tons of notaries who never took the statewide exam. Also there is no formal training to become a notary, unlike the mandatory three years of law school (which usually followed four years of college) to become an attorney.

    But yes, a good, skilled notary is probably more efficient at drafting certain documents and making things happen than many attorneys. However, these are relatively few and far between.
     

    corey d

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 8, 2012
    176
    16
    Louisiana
    I would never take a chance with a mail order trust or a trust from anyone who is not an attorney who deals with NFA trusts on a regular basis. Sure i could get one for $100 bucks from T Joe the Trust Man, but the extra $500 is worth the piece of mind.
     

    whitsend

    -Global Mod-
    Premium Member
    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0
    Sep 6, 2009
    4,137
    38
    Transylvania, LA
    I would never take a chance with a mail order trust or a trust from anyone who is not an attorney who deals with NFA trusts on a regular basis. Sure i could get one for $100 bucks from T Joe the Trust Man, but the extra $500 is worth the piece of mind.

    I agree with most of this. But why pay $600? Most of the attorneys on here do them for around $300.
     

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    195,929
    Messages
    1,550,729
    Members
    29,328
    Latest member
    TonyGuillory
    Top Bottom