Should torturing be legal?

[Takuan]

Did you read any links, do any research? I can't believe you typed that

Assuming your question was addressed to me, the answer is yes. (I assume you're equally capable of doing your own reading and research).

And you can believe what you like.

 

[Gus McCrae]

As for those who say Constitutional guarantees don't extend to non citizens, an argument can be made that they should... that seemed to be the view expressed by the majority of Founding Fathers.

Inherent rights for all people.... the bill of rights.

I used to think that the constitution just applied to US citizens, but I'm starting to question that.

As far as the torture question, I don't think that is what America stands for. It just doesn't sit well with me.

I also see the risk associated with not torturing people similar to our right to bear arms. There is some increased risk to safety with both, but that's the price of freedom. Freedom exposes one to more danger, but you are free.

 

[mcinfantry]

WE have been TORTURING people since WE were a country....

tell me more of how you support television, weight rooms, air conditioning etc, for prisoners. since to deprive them of these are also torture.

and keep quoting mccain. he BROKE. he was tortured and BROKE, read his book, i have read a lot on POW's..... almost everyone does.

i never went, but can anyone who has been to SERE school tell me i am wrong? tell me that you, at some point, can and will break, and that at some point you will give SOME information.....

 

[tactical723]

I agree with Kcinnick, we should torture, if we are interrogating known terrorists or known associates of such organizations that undermine, threaten, plot, train or are imminent threat to the security of US and its citizens, then game on, take whatever non-lethal means necessary to extract information to protect our Gov't and its people, hell every other country does it and breaks the Geneva convention, the problem is loose lips, video, media

 

[jlong]

When Water Boqrding is conducted, it is conducted with intention to confirm intel. With that said, when you interogate someone, do you just go tell what you want to know, and hope they just blatantly tell you what you want? No there are several thousand strategies involved with interogation, and the CIA is some of the best. They are looking for specific information, and eventually you will break, and give them what they want. If you don't believe it, I challenge anyone let's get to a pool, and Water Board for bank account info, or other info vital to your finances, eventually you will give the specific information. It only takes 5 minutes to find out if what you say is the truth, and believe me the CIA has these intel vehicles in place.

What I am saying, is that in midevil times an individual may have told you they were a witch, to stop the pain, but in todays time there are means to find out if someone is telling the truth. We are looking for facts, not heresay about someones beliefs.


People need to stop being tools, and educate themselves. There is a world outside your ****ing eyelids, and it is cruel. Survive or die.

 

[posse comatosis]

believe me the CIA has these intel vehicles in place.

Only CTU has such tings in place, and only Jack Bauer could get the truth out of me.

 

[mcinfantry]

Some of you continue to torture me incessantly with your posts. I continuously answer with the TRUTH. Can you imagine what I would say if you waterboarded me

 

[mrdbeau]

Ok, I've stayed out of this debate because I don't really have a feeling about it one way or the other, but Takuan posting nonsense forces me into the discussion.

According to many former CIA guys (and others who claim firsthand experience on both sides of the equation), torture (like waterboarding) just doesn't work... people will say anything they think you want to hear, so not much value there.

That statement is in direct contradiction to all of the CIA chiefs under Bush who state that we DID receive valuable information from using waterboarding and the other enhanced interrogation techniques, including information which prevented terrorist attacks on LA and in other places throughout Europe.

From a legal standpoint, most forms of torture (including waterboarding) are outlawed by the Geneva Convention. At the behest of the United States, those who engaged in torture (waterboarding included) during WWII were prosecuted... notably Germans and Japanese.

Again, the lawyers under Bush contradict exactly what you are saying (insofar as the implication that waterboarding is torture). Waterboarding is not even remotely torture, nor is putting someone in a box with an insect, sleep deprivation, making them listen to loud music, making them stand up for extended periods of time and stay in other "stress positions." By your definition of "torture," just about anything an interrogator does besides sit someone down behind a table and politely ask them questions is "torture."

As for those who say Constitutional guarantees don't extend to non citizens, an argument can be made that they should... that seemed to be the view expressed by the majority of Founding Fathers.

Where did any Founding Father say that someone NOT residing/living/visiting territory owned by the United States or who was not a citizen had Constitutional guarantees?

 

[mcinfantry]

If we want to take into account that non combatants have constitutional protection, then indeed we cannot leave Iraq, as it is our constitutional duty to extend US constitutional rights to everyone, NO?

Apparently eveyone here is an only child and homeschooled seeing they have never been tortured, tortured anyone, nor witnessed the effectiveness of said torture. I am 100% positive it can be effective

 

[rockmup]

As for those who say Constitutional guarantees don't extend to non citizens, an argument can be made that they should... that seemed to be the view expressed by the majority of Founding Fathers.

Your on CRACK. So please make this argument. I cant wait. If you'd wouldn't mind please start your own thread on it.

 

[Takuan]

Some of you fellas really need to leaven your Manichean Hannity, Limbaugh and World Nut Daily with a little perspective... stop allowing yourselves to be pumped full of hot air (thus relieving the burden of actually having to think for yourselves). Instead, turn off the TV, radio, and computer, and go to the library. Pick up a book or two about history and Constitutional law, and start reading...

 

[mrdbeau]

Some of you fellas really need to leaven your Manichean Hannity, Limbaugh and World Nut Daily with a little perspective... stop allowing yourselves to be pumped full of hot air (thus relieving the burden of actually having to think for yourselves). Instead, turn off the TV, radio, and computer, and go to the library. Pick up a book or two about history and Constitutional law, and start reading...

Funny you mention that...

I TOOK CON LAW IN COLLEGE.

 

[Takuan]

Lots of people have gone to college. I myself have gone to college (probably more years ago than you've been on the planet). Lots of people have degrees in one thing or another. I myself have a degree in one thing or another.

Irrelevant.

What matters is whether you've actually learned to think for yourself (rather than allowing others to do it for you).

 

[rockmup]

So, even with all your education you go nothing ? check

 

[Takuan]

So, even with all your education you go nothing ? check

I presume you meant to say "know nothing."

Actually, the older I get, the more convinced I am that this is true.

 

[rockmup]

I presume you meant to say "know nothing."

Actually, the older I get, the more convinced I am that this is true.

Lol. Yes.

So please go make your argument. I'd love to see a good conversation / debate without all the BS.

 

[dashzero]

As for reading books and turning off the computer. You should get an iPhone, because I think whatever phone u use is stupid.

Our constitution wasn't carved in stone and the cracks filled with blood.

How about you stop reading and talk to people face to face at Friday lunches. That's what the flinging fathers did. They took the time meet each other and they had only one four horsepower "vehicles"

I read books on my iphone.

 

[mrdbeau]

Lots of people have gone to college. I myself have gone to college (probably more years ago than you've been on the planet). Lots of people have degrees in one thing or another. I myself have a degree in one thing or another.

Irrelevant.

What matters is whether you've actually learned to think for yourself (rather than allowing others to do it for you).

Well, you definitely didn't learn logic, debate, or reading comprehension during your studies. The only reason I mentioned the college bit was because you specifically said:

Pick up a book or two about history and Constitutional law, and start reading...

I have picked up a fair number of books about history and Con law and have read them thoroughly. I'm looking at them on my bookshelf as we speak. So your assumption that "we" apparently do not have any sort of education when it comes to Constitutional law is patently false.

Now, you have failed to address any of the points I raised:
1) Your assertion that torture doesn't work is in direct contradiction to what HEADS OF THE CIA have said.
2) Your definition of torture is legally incorrect and logically unworkable.

Most importantly:
3) SHOW ME where ANY Founding Father made an assertion that the Constitution applied to non-citizens who were not on U.S. soil. One quote, one comment, one piece of literature, anything.

 

[Takuan]

As for reading books and turning off the computer. You should get an iPhone, because I think whatever phone u use is stupid.

Our constitution wasn't carved in stone and the cracks filled with blood.

How about you stop reading and talk to people face to face at Friday lunches. That's what the flinging fathers did. They took the time meet each other and they had only one four horsepower "vehicles"

I read books on my iphone.

Assuming you're speaking to me, I do have an iPhone (still prefer books). And BR is too far to drive for lunch. On the other hand, if there's ever a lunch in NOLA...

 

[Bayoupiper]

You guys are missing his point.

He's already intimated that he's older and wiser than us and thus we should bow down in respect to his resume................


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