A handgun should be a handgun, and a flashlight should be a flashlight

[Speedlace]

An NYPD officer accidentally shot a 74-yr old in the stomach.
The cop went to turn on his Surefire mounted light, but instead pressed the trigger.

Something similar happened in Dallas:
http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47259

A New York City firearms instructor/expert had this to say:
"When you put a flashlight on a weapon system, there are numerous things that you have to manipulate, and under stress, things are more difficult," Cooper said. "I don’t like flashlights on guns, I never did. I personally don’t see the necessity . . . a flashlight to me is an unnecessary hazard."

'Flashlight' shoot happened before

The shooting of an innocent, unarmed elderly Bronx man by a cop who was trying to turn on a pistol-mounted flashlight is at least the second accidental police shooting in the US involving that same flashlight model.

But unlike Saturday’s shooting of 76-year-old Jose Colon — who survived a cop’s bullet to the stomach — an unarmed Texas man died Oct. 13 under what reportedly were strikingly similar circumstances involving the Surefire X300 flashlight.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bronx/flashlight_shoot_happened_before_idVqywoSeilX8BauI38OJN
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/nyregion/23shot.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Jose Colon &st=cse

 

[topgunz1]

Your taking a lack of training, and blaming it on the tool. I'm not going to blame my pencil for my bad penmanship.

 

[Narco]

DG switches for the win...

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

DG switches have draw backs, not using your weapon light as a flashlight for an even bigger win.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

DG switches have draw backs, not using your weapon light as a flashlight for an even bigger win.

I agree. Narco swears by the DG switch, but I am not cool with it. i find it alters my grip too much. If i HAD to use it, I could train to it, but I am very comfortable with a thumb switch like my X400 / TLR-1

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

It alters your grip and it great increases the risk of having white light when and where you don't want it. Personally I think the Cop in this story is full of ****. I don't see how you could accidentally pull the trigger while activating an X200/X300 toggle switch. I don't know what other people do but I use my most forward thumb to do it and that in no way moves a finger to the trigger much less presses it. I don't use any tape switches any of the time. Even on my rifles I press a tail cap button with my forward thumb.

 

[Guate_shooter]

Your taking a lack of training, and blaming it on the tool. I'm not going to blame my pencil for my bad penmanship.

+1

Not the pens fault I write like a Doctor!

 

[Hitman]

Your taking a lack of training, and blaming it on the tool. I'm not going to blame my pencil for my bad penmanship.

+1

Not the pens fault I write like a Doctor!

Dudes; the question wasn't whether it was the lights fault.

It's asking whether or not a gadget on a gun can be a potential hazard.

I voted Yes.

Like is posted, it's not the first time it's happen.

Train, Train, Train yes I know it's easy to say.
The fact is that LEO's don't Train, Train, Train. How many Fellow LEO's you guys know that train at home, Drawing, Mag Drills etc.? Probably not many.

In Life and Death Situations we should work to have officers have to make as LITTLE decisions as possible. Fumbling with their gun/light/laser while trying to handle a high tense situation can be a nightmare and cause delay in reaction time(Bad for Officer) and/or a negligent discharge which could be fatal.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Which is potentially more dangerous using a weapon light or not being able to identify something you are pointing your gun at because you didn't have time to draw a flash light? Have you ever tried to clear a house with a pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other? There is definitely more more fumbling when untrained people try to perform independent actions with both hands. Sorry man gunlights are not only safe but they are safer. The problem comes in when stupid cops try to use the light in lieu of a flashlight and violate one of the fundamental laws of weapon handling by pointing a gun at something they are unwilling to destroy.

 

[Guate_shooter]

Anyting can be a hazard, something as simple as getting out the shower with a wet floor can get your azz killed.

Its not the devices fault the idiot simply failed to extend his trigger finger to turn the light on, OR use the thumb of his support hand to acomplish the same task, his training should be the one that they should be looking at and things that need to change so it doesnt happen again.

The light is not at fault, HE IS.

 

[ta2d_cop]

The bottom line is a light on a gun is an extention of such, and should be treated accordingly. This cop is a jackass. Period. A light on a pistol or rifle should not be used as a general illuminaton tool. That's what the handheld flashlight is for. The weaponlight should only be used to illuminate a potential target. Its that simple.

 

[Hitman]

Have you ever tried to clear a house with a pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other? .

No I haven't, we had lights on our pistols

You've obviously never tried searching for an active shooter with your pistol in one hand and a StreamLight SL-20 (or SureFire 6P) in the other. You want to talk about fumbling???? .

Well in both cases so far, no one was searching for an active shooter.

But I've done plenty live CQB runs with Gun Lights with and without NVG's. They are great, I love them and if I were an Active LEO I would definitely WANT one on my gun.

I never said the lights were bad but we can't deny the evidence so far. Two accidental shootings, one death with this same model of Gun Light. Just saying that it seems something 'Ain't right'

The light is not at fault, HE IS.

dude! lol

Again, the question didn't ask who was at fault, only if a gadget on a gun could be a hazard. We know who is at fault.

 

[honestlou]

Which is potentially more dangerous using a weapon light or not being able to identify something you are pointing your gun at because you didn't have time to draw a flash light? Have you ever tried to clear a house with a pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other? There is definitely more more fumbling when untrained people try to perform independent actions with both hands. Sorry man gunlights are not only safe but they are safer. The problem comes in when stupid cops try to use the light in lieu of a flashlight and violate one of the fundamental laws of weapon handling by pointing a gun at something they are unwilling to destroy.

Excellent points, especially about pointing at things you are not yet ready to destroy.

My question is this: do you train with a second flashlight that is used for illumination prior to the decision to shoot? Or if you draw your weapon at night do you just use the weapon mounted light?

In the daylight, you draw your weapon if necessary, but you should not point in until you have made the decision to shoot; at least that's my understanding- movement should be with the weapon at the ready, not up and pointed at everything you look at.

My question, and the problem I see, is not just with a weapon mounted light. Even with a separate light, most people train with a "unitized" weapon/light hold (Harries?)

but at least with a separate light you have the option of moving and looking with the light, and then bringing the light hand and the gun hand together when you are ready to shoot.

 

[JBE]

As with any piece of equipment, you have to train and practice with that piece of equipment...You also have to use that piece of equimpment for what it was designed for - a pistol mounted light should not be used as a general illumination tool

With that said, I've seen time and time again in EMS where a new piece of equipment is sent out into the field and little to no training is ever supplied with that piece of equipment except for maybe the manual and a short video or, occasionally, a brief hands-on demonstration if you're lucky....A lot of times equipment is distributed and all you get is a smile and a "Here you go...start using this..."

 

[oleheat]

I couldn't say. It depends on the person holding the gun, I suppose.

Didn't someone here say just the other day they've witnessed an officer illuminate a vehicle with his weapon-attached flashlight while checking the driver's credentials?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Most weaponlights are bright enough to illuminate whatever is in front of them without being pointed directly at it. My gun is drawn and the light is in use when im actively searching or identifying a threat. I am in a stage between "am I willing to shoot it" and "I have decided to shoot it". When I use my pistol to clear a building I do so from a compressed ready position. Where my head and eyes go my gun goes. My guns is drawn because I am actively searching for a threat. If I was looking for a lost child my gun would be in the holder and I would use a hand held light. When I find someone say in a house committing a burglary I point my weapon at them and illuminate them. At that point I am absolutely ready to destroy them if the need arises. My finger is no where near the trigger and won't be till I decide to fire.

What I am trying to say Hitman is that I point blank think the cop is lying. I think his finger was on the trigger when it shouldn't have been and the light in this case is a scapegoat.

 

[oleheat]

Serious question. Most of the officers on here live and breathe firearms. You are "gun people".

That is NOT the case for the majority of officers out there. How many of these type accidents do you believe can be traced back to this fact?

My friends & relatives in your line of work are gun enthusiasts. They shoot on a regular basis (not just regular qualifications) and take pride in the safe handling of them to the letter- on top of the training they were provided by their agency.

I don't mean to generalize- but one has to think there's a smaller percentage of "gun people" working for the NYPD than say an agency in the south, where firearms are a greater part of our culture.

Just wondering out loud again....

 

[Dustin-R]

Honest question here....Why was his finger on the trigger while turning on his light? Should your finger not go to the trigger untill you are ready to fire?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Serious question. Most of the officers on here live and breathe firearms. You are "gun people".

That is NOT the case for the majority of officers out there. How many of these type accidents do you believe can be traced back to this fact?

My friends & relatives in your line of work are gun enthusiasts. They shoot on a regular basis (not just regular qualifications) and take pride in the safe handling of them to the letter- on top of the training they were provided by their agency.

I don't mean to generalize- but one has to think there's a smaller percentage of "gun people" working for the NYPD than say an agency in the south, where firearms are a greater part of our culture.

Just wondering out loud again....

I agree with you about the gun culture at NYPD but that just reinforces the point that the flashlight didn't cause this the Officer did. Equal Opportunity, poor training, cultural bias against firearms, and Admin that loots the training budget first and always all played a bigger role in this than the gizmo on the gun.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I also wanted to add NYPD doesn't issue these lights. Look at what an X200/X300 cost. Maybe the guy was a gun guy after all. I still think he is full of ****.