Another NOPD facepalm (NOT A LEO BASHFEST!!)

[FishingBack]

I am actually working with several entities to develop an in-service program that will educate patrol officers about CHP, OC, and general firearms laws as they pertain to the law-abiding citizen.

Many partners involved in this to make sure it comes out right.

1. Citizens rights.
2. CHP rights
3. Open carry rights
4. Who is breaking the law
5. What constitutes a firearms violation?
6. Common myths and urban legends.

the goal is to make sure the officers know what the rights of the legally armed citizen is while equipping them with the tools to recognize and properly arrest those who are violating the law.

This is wonderful news!

 

[Cat]

Guys,
laws are obviously covered in the academy, but consider a few things. We spend most of the time on this forum discussing the intricacies of only probably 1% of the laws out there..concealed carried. An entire online community exists that supports discussion, education, re-eduction, and misconceptions about that minuscule area alone.

using that as an evaluation of scope, also consider that lawyers, who still only specialize in a a particular area of law, still do not know all there is to know about even their area of specialization.

Even doctors specialize, and those that are "general practitioners" only know the surface of most things and then refer you to a specialist.

it is very difficult because the subject is so near and dear to us and we have a personal stake, but step away and look at the issue.

In traffic law alone, there are literally over 1000 different laws, and each one of those has it's own little nuisances. it is completely unreasonable to expect anyone, especially a cop, to know all the laws.

Now you are saying to yourself, but "gun laws are so important" and they are, but they are important to you because they are something that you hold important.

there are people who have had family killed by drunk drivers and are appalled cops are not running more traffic.

there are those who are all into the drug problem and want to know why cops are not more knowledgeable about drug law and search and seizure law.

Attorney's have staff and entire libraries to research and "know" what we expect that average street cop to know at the drop of a dime.

Also consider that the AVERAGE cop probably has no more than a high school degree and is a good guy simply looking to do his job and serve his community. Someone like me who has outside interests in firearms and has a natural drive and desire to do well, is naturally going to be more familiar with those kinds of things. I know guys that can rattle off any obscure traffic statute or tell you up and down about Scheduled drugs and how to seize vehicles and money, but they are not as knowledgeable about gun laws.

Cuple that with the reality that we are completely reversed in our concept of worth in this society, when we pay teachers, LEO, firefighters, etc barely above minimum wage in many areas, yet a guy playing a game makes millions. Perhaps if we paid more for better talent, we would get better talent. there will always be people in LE who are the Michael Jordons of policing because they have in their heart and work ethic a true desire to do the job. i consider that level of devotion on par with military service. very few join the military for the money. Same with teachers. Yes, it is a job, but obviously there is more to it for many. I know for me there is.

The reality is that we learn from others in our circle of life. After the academy, little education on legal changes exists. Some officers do a good job of keeping up with it on their own through professional associations or research, but that is simply because that is the kind of people they are.

Law Enforcement is a difficult and ever changing landscape. The overwhelming majority of the men and women out there are doing a great job with the resources they have at hand. if they do not know the intricacies of a particular law, it is generally not a conspiracy against you. they may simply have never been trained or may have been given bad information.

The system is definitely broken, but it is the system we must all survive in until it is fixed. We are all, LEO and non-LEO, doing the best we can.

That's logical, and makes perfect sense. It is silly to spend X amount of time on a set of laws that you may only see a fraction of the time on compared to something you may see five times an hour.

I get that. And I'd expect more time is spent concentrating on those laws you see repeatedly, daily.

But in my opinion and I know we don't agree with many of each other's posts, the belief that it is illegal to carry in a vehicle is one of the laws that would be grounds for large complaint.

I mean, if I carried in a bank and a police officer dogged me about it. I'd shrug it off, cooperate, agree to leave, whatever. (I'd politely suggest he brush up on carry laws, but I wouldn't balk and dig in my heels either)... Or if I were giving a traffic ticket on yellow. It's an iffy law, I'd take the ticket and maybe if I had the time or inclination, take it up with the judge. Maybe not. I may pay it and call it done.


If I'm detained, possibly arrested, involved in an extended scene roadside with my kids in the backseat because this officer honestly believed I was breaking the law by having a secured gun in my vehicle. I'd be f---ing livid.

There are some laws I'd give a pass too because as you said, there are too many to keep up with constantly. But some laws demand the knowledge. This isn't an obscure firearms CHP law. It's one of the primary ones. I know it's a non-issue because it was just casual conversation between neighbors but it's a little disturbing at the same time.

I'm not sure if that's a fair opinion or not. But it's mine.

 

[leVieux]

Texas did have a law against pistols in cars for many years, but, there were many exceptions and it was rarely enforced. That was recently corrected.
I lived in Corpus for years and just about everyone carries there.
If you want accurate info from a cop, talk to Brannon (NolaCop), most of them are so f.o.s.
Don't do anything stupid and you'll be fine.
leVieux

 

[BUSTER48]

Nolacopusmc, all I have to say about you is this. "You da man".

 

[Dave328]

WHOA WHOA WHOA!
Not wanting this to be construed or turn into a LE bashfest in no way welcomes a Nolacop LOVEfest!

 

[Nolacopusmc]

There is a concept called "organizational inertia."

Basically, it means "We keep doing what we been doing because that's the way we've been doing it."

It is the big brother of " If it ain't broke, don't fix it." and the cousin of "Change for the sake of change."

The reality is that even though laws are amended, repealed, and created, that does not always filter down to the cop on the street. if I went through the academy, went through field training, and have been on the road for a couple years, and I have not experienced any issues, why would I suddenly begin to question the knowledge i have.

Now, if i see a fellow officer get hemmed up for a bad arrest, I am the kind of guy that wants to know why so that i do not step in the same pile of ****. I am a big fan of learning from others mistakes and try to help all who i can learn from the multitude of mistakes I have made, but some things you only learn from getting burnt yourself--like fat chicks.

I like to learn as much as I can. Many are like that, but not all. These are the same guys who never practice anything associated with their job, and when asked why, say, "i get paid for a 12 hour shift. if i need to know that, they will have to schedule it when I am getting paid."

Those guys exist in every profession.

take Cat's example of a cop not knowing you can have a gun in your car. I am here to tell you, that many cops do not know that, and in my opinion, it is not their fault. They are doing their job based off the information they are given. if that information is bad, it is not their fault. Now, if they have good information, yet still make bad decisions, then that is 100% on them.

I get a lot of flak on here for "blindly defending LEO no matter what" Those that really know me know that is not true. I will be the first one to smoke a bad cop or a bad decision, because he is jeopardizing my life, integrity, and everything that badge is supposed to stand for.

However, I am willing to immediately give a cop the benefit of the doubt, because while I instantly acknowledge there are bad cops like bad carpenters, bankers, lawyers, grocers, etc,. I know how most of them are because I am part of that subculture--most are good honest people who hate a bad cop worse than anyone on here.


I will share a story that I have shared with others on here.

Several years ago, iIwas working traffic one night when I saw an old man blatantly make a left turn on a red light right in front of me. I immediately thought WTF, and promptly pulled him over. Went through the requisite, license registration...etc. do you know why I stopped you? yadda yada.

He said to me, "I thought you could take a left on red. "

Seeing he was from New Orleans and we were on the west bank I rather smartly said, "Not to my knowledge sir, maybe that is some New Orleans thing, but in the rest of LA, we only take rights on red."

I gave him his copy and sent him on his way. He was not argumentative and I was not rude. However, something in the quiet conviction in which he "plead his case" had me second guessing myself, so i reached into my back seat and grabbed my handy West law book. I looked up the statute, and sure enough, one is legally able to make a left on red if turning from a one way onto a one way after making a complete stop.

Now, I could have just shrugged it off and let him go to court and deal with it there, but something in me knew it just wasn't right, so with my head hung low, I went to my supervisor and explained the situation. he said, "you know what you got to do."

So, the next day, at about 0800, I went to New Orleans and knocked on the old man's door. He opened it and of course looked a little puzzled.

"Sir, after you told me why you did what you did, I went back and looked, and you were right, and I was wrong. If it is not too much trouble, could I get that copy of the ticket I gave to you back?"

He grinned a little; not as a sarcastic **** eating smirky grin, but a satisfied and justified grin. I thanked him and moseyed on over to the west bank with a hard lesson learned.

I tell that story in this thread to illustrate a point. Back then, and still today, I am at the top of the food chain in knowing my **** when it comes to two specific areas of basic law enforcement--gun law and traffic law.

No one had ever told me otherwise, and since there were signs to tell you whether a right on red was allowed, I surmised the same would hold true for a left on red. It made perfect logical "common sense" to me. I was wrong, and until I had a chance to know that, I continued on with my "common sense fallacy " of that law.

Now, if that old man had cussed me out and made a scene, I still would have wrote the ticket and probably a few more and never once thought to check it up. how many more of those tickets may I have written?

In everyone of my CHP classes, there are a couple of legal questions, or as I call them "Urban legends", I ask the class to see what their level of "common sense" is about laws. It is actually more to see what they have been told growing up. I then use that to show how people are educated about laws, social mores, right and wrong, etc by those they surround themselves with. And how what seemed to be so clear and obvious to them, is wrong.

I agree that regardless of your chosen profession, work ethic, if nothing else, should propel you to constantly learn and stay at the top of your game. Furthermore, with the huge responsibility and power placed in the hands of LE, it is doubly important to know what you are doing, because a simple honest mistake can be life changing for someone. I take that seriously, but I also acknowledge people, even cops, are human. I am willing to forgive an honest mistake, but not an ill-intentioned one.

I am often known for saying a little phrase, and I do my best to live by it...

"I make a lot of mistakes, but i rarely make the same mistake twice."

I think that is the most i can expect of myself as I am continually learning about LE and life in general.

 

[Sin-ster]

You oughta buy me a beer or something, Nolacop-- every time I ask an LEO question, you get praised for "your best post ever" after you respond.

 

[Baldrik78]

Yea, but he's short, and I just won't tolerate that.

 

[charlie12]

Yea, but he's short, and I just won't tolerate that.

My mama always told me to be nice to short peole that they can't help it. So I'm nice to people under 6'.