Biblical Artifacts Declared Fakes: Arrests in Israel for Forgery

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  • Mjolnir

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    Biblical Artifacts Declared Fakes: Arrests in Israel for Forgery
    http://www.athenapub.com/biblical-artifacts.htm


    In 2002, the news that an ancient ossuary might be associated with James, the brother of Jesus of Nazareth, created great excitement in the world of biblical archaeology as well as among Christians and those of other religious faiths. The ossuary, or burial box, purportedly had an Aramaic inscription reading "Ya'akov, son of Yossef, brother of Yeshua," translated as "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" (see AR 3,3:12). While there was no way of absolutely proving a connection with the historical Jesus, the juxtaposition of the three names, and the dating of the Aramaic script, led some to believe that it was the burial box of James, martyred in AD 62. As such it had a powerful emotional and religious significance as the earliest reference to the biblical Jesus.

    The limestone ossuary was in the possession of Oded Golan, a well known Israeli collector of antiquities. At the time, Golan claimed he had purchased the box many years ago, and was unaware of its potential value until the inscription was read by André Lemaire, an expert in ancient scripts. While the news about the inscription was welcomed with enthusiasm by many, doubts about its authenticity were raised almost immediately. Over the past two years, various scientific analyses have been performed on the ossuary, including tests to determine if the patina over the inscription was consistent with that on the remainder of the artifact. At the same time, paleographic analysis of the inscription questioned both the style of lettering and the wording. While the evidence suggests that the box itself was ancient (probably ca. 1st century AD), at least part of the inscription is probably a recent fake.

    Also, in the past two years, Oded Golan and his entire collection have been under intense scrutiny. Initially, he was held by Israeli authorities for questioning about his role as a possible forger and receiver of stolen antiquities, but eventually released without being charged. Then in late December 2004, Israeli police indicted him along with three antiquities dealers (Robert Deutsch, Shlomo Cohen, and Faiz-al-Amaleh) on charges of running a forgery ring for over twenty years. Charges also included causing damage to antiquities and receiving fraudulent goods. The case is of particular interest because the items now declared to be fakes were once considered some of the most highly valued historical and religious pieces to be found in Israel.

    Other spectacular artifacts now revealed as forgeries include:

    o An ivory pomegranate (fig.1), once thought to be the top of a temple priest's scepter. Until recently on display in the Israel Museum, the pomegranate was believed to be the only known relic from Solomon's temple. This small artifact had an inscription partly encircling its neck which read "Sacred donation for the priests of (in) the House of [Yahw]h," identifying it with the Temple. Pomegranates were ancient symbols of fertility, and a motif known to be used in the Temple of Solomon (1 Kings 7:21). All of this is now moot, since the pomegranate has been withdrawn from view, and the Museum has announced that it is a fake. At the time of its purchase from an anonymous source in the 1980s, the Museum deposited $550,000 in a secret Swiss bank account. This subterfuge alone should have raised suspicions.

    o A stone seal purportedly belonging to Menashe (also known as Manasseh), King of Judah ca. 687-642 BC. It is reported to have been offered to a private collector for $1 million. Reference to Menashe's rule (noted for toleration of foreign gods), and to his captivity in Babylonia can be found in II Chronicles 33:11-13.

    o A decorated stone menorah said to belong to the temple High Priest. This also was offered to private collectors for a large sum of money.

    o The Yoash (or Jehoash) Inscription. The sandstone tablet, if it had been authentic, would have been of immeasurable historical value. It supposedly contained instructions in ancient Hebrew for repairing the First Temple in Jerusalem during the reign of Yehoash, son of Akhazyah, King of Judah (836-798 BC). Such repairs were reported in the Old Testament in 2 Kings:12, and the tablet, if genuine, would have provided non-biblical confirmation of the event.

    [Fig.1: Ivory pomegranate, purported to be from Solomon's temple, declared a fake (Israel Museum)].

    The tablet, like the ossuary, was owned by Oded Golan, and like the ossuary, the stone tablet itself is probably ancient. Carbon-14 analysis undertaken by the Geological Survey of Israel dates the crust on the stone to 2,300 years ago. This appears consistent with the stone being an actual relic from the 9th century, which began corroding at the beginning of the 3rd century. Based on linguistic analysis, the inscription, however, was considered to be a forgery by most scholars almost from the start. These included Frank Cross, a distinguished Biblical archaeologist, now retired (2003), Edward Greenstein of Tel Aviv University (2003), and Reinhard Lehmann, of Johannes Gutenberg University (2004). For a different opinion, consult David Freedman (2004).

    o Fragments of clay vessels with inscriptions that supposedly showed a connection to biblical sites including the Israelite temples.

    o A quartz bowl with an Egyptian inscription describing the destruction of Megiddo by Egyptian armies. The outcome of this battle is a topic of considerable academic debate, and any documentation such as the purported bowl would be of great interest.

    In addition to the large amounts of money that passed hands, and the potential havoc the forgeries may raise for museum collections, there is a larger question of religious and political importance. Many religious people and others interested in documenting Israel's historical claim to Jerusalem have been anxious to find proof outside the Bible regarding the existence of the First and Second Temples. To date, only remains of the reconstruction of the Second Temple that occurred during the reign of Herod The Great (37 BC-4 AD) have been located. The present impossibility of excavating underneath the Muslim sites on the Temple Mount prevents more conclusive investigations.

    With some Palestinians claiming right of ownership of the sacred area, and denying that the First and Second Temples ever existed on the Temple Mount to legitimize their claims, any archaeological proof of the early temples' existence (such as the pomegranate and the Jehoash Tablet) must have been welcomed by many Israelis. By replicating ancient Hebrew letters and producing inscriptions in conformity with Biblical texts, the forgery ring took advantage of the desire of many people to possess tangible evidence of biblical accounts for religious and nationalistic purposes.

    [http://www.mystae.com/reflections/messiah/research/ inscriptions.html; http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/520771.html, 29 Dec. 2004; http://www.orientalisi.net/lehmann.htm, 5 Mar. 2004; Lewitt, I. (Ed.) 1995. The Israel Museum, Jerusalem. New York, Vendome Press; Freedman, D. 2004. "Don't Rush to Judgment." Biblical Archaeology Review 30:49-51.]



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    This article appears on pages 15-16 in the Recent Finds in Archaeology of Vol.4 No.2 of Athena Review. The complete text may be obtained in the printed version of the magazine.

    Webmaster's Comments:

    Israel's paid shills [ http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/ne...ropaganda-internet-warfare-team-unveiled.html ] are spamming the net with claims that Israel has a right to Palestine because the archaeological evidence proves the Israelite were there first.

    There are three things wrong with that:

    [1] The present day Ashkenazi are not the descendants of the Biblical Hebrews but of converted Khazars, and one need only look at their Caucasian skin to see they are not from middle eastern people.

    [2] Second, the archaeological evidence shows the Hittites predate the Israelites and Palestinians, but nobody seems eager to let them come back home.

    [3] Finally, the archaeological treasures held up to bolster Israel's claim that the Old Testament is real history and not just legends and myths have all been revealed as frauds!

    One need only stroll around Egypt, or pre-invasion Iraq, or Iran, or Turkey, or any other nation with an ancient heritage to see the vast numbers of ruins. In seeing the abundance of these ruins (an ancient Egyptian temple was recently discovered while digging for a sewer line) it becomes clear that cities on the scale such as we are told the Kingdoms of David and Solomon were simply do not vanish without a trace.

    The fact is that archaeology does not support the Old Testament version of history. Indeed the available archaeological evidence tells us that the story of the Exodus did not happen to the Hebrews but to the Hyksos! See: http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/exodushawas.php

    But keep in mind that the idea of copyright and intellectual property did not exist in biblical times. The physical scroll was the item of value, and authors copied ideas from other works all the time to make their points, such as Moses copying the story of the Noah flood from the much earlier Epic of Gilgamesh!

    It therefore seems likely that the stories of David and Solomon, in the absence of ruins such as we see in Egypt, were as much copies of other peoples' history as the story of the Hyksos and of Noah!
     

    Mjolnir

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    An Exodus which was Merely a Myth
    From http://hebdo.ahram.org.eg/arab/ahram/2007/4/18/voy2.htm

    On the site of an ancient fortress, in northern Sinai, archaeologists of the Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) has announced that it had found some pumice stones, evidence of the terrible disaster and the first known tsunami in history. The volcanic rocks projected in the Sinai during the eruption, 3,500 years ago, the volcano Cycladic of Thera, confirm stories Pharaohs.

    The cataclysm of Thera, the current Santorini in the Aegean Sea, has been presented through innumerable writings as having preceded or caused the ten plagues of Egypt explained, or a punishment reserved for Levites revolted against Moses. "This discovery is not provided proof of the exodus, archaeology does not confirm this, and it is a myth," said Zahi Hawas, secretary general of the CSA. That the explosion of the volcano occurred, resulting in the decline of the Minoan civilization, Crete. A massive tidal wave would have resulted in the death of 35,000 people on the coast south of the Mediterranean and in ashes villages in Egypt, Palestine and the Arabian peninsula. For Zahi Hawas, "if the exodus has occurred, what we do not know, it can not be at this time, but two centuries later, under Ramses II. However, the presence of ash and volcanic rocks on the site of the ancient fortress of Tharo to Tell Hebwa, confirms, in his view, ancient inscriptions referring to the expulsion of the Hyksos, enemies of the Egyptians. Texts suggest, in fact , natural disasters occurred during the era of the Hyksos, a military caste came from the east, and their exodus before the start of the New Kingdom, carried out shortly by the eruption of the Thera volcano. For example, several stories relating to this war show up on a stele of the temple of Karnak Séti I do, in a description of the route of Horus in a text under Thoutmotsis III or on a papyrus on the war waged by King Ahmos.

    The Skeletons Hyksos

    The team also discovered in the Sinai desert the ruins of a fort with four rectangular towers, which date from the eighteenth pharaonic dynasty. This fortress is now considered the oldest structure on the military line of defense, also known as Route Horus. But there was not the slightest proof of the story of the Old Testament, the story of Moses and the Jews, and their exodus from Egypt and their wandering in the wilderness. Two female skeletons, pottery and jewelry were recovered. Those remains were members of the civilization hyksos, an enemy of the people of the ancient Egyptians.

    The researchers argue that this discovery is particularly interesting because of the volcanic rocks found on the site of the excavations. They believe that these are traces left by the eruption of Santorini volcano, more than 15 centuries before Christ. Santorini is a small archipelago of volcanic islands in the Aegean Sea, south-east of mainland Greece. This volcano would then have killed more than 35,000 people and wiped out the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete.

    The Intersection of War

    Showing the foundations of the fort of the XVIIIth dynasty, the oldest ever found in this line of defense, known as the road of Horus, Mohamad Abdel-Maqsoud, the leader of excavations and the director of the central administration of Egyptian antiquities, said that it is testimony to the fierceness of the fighting. "It is here that was established the first large lock of the empire against the conquerors from the east, as the Hyksos," he says, whereas today the Suez Canal is only 5 km. But the basis for subsequent attacks in the Pharaonic empire in the direction of Palestine, with the establishment of a chain composed of a dozen strongholds until what is now known as the Gaza Strip.

    This story may have inspired the biblical story of the exodus, according to some scholars. "They can say what they want, I detailed, did not hesitate to say Hawas. I am an archaeologist and my job is to tell the truth. If the truth disturbed, it's not my problem. " The story of the exodus is celebrated as a crucial moment in the creation of the Jewish people. According to the Old Testament, Moses was the son of a Jewish slave who had abandoned on the Nile in a wicker basket to protect the Pharaoh's persecution. Rescued from the waters by the Pharaoh's daughter and raised in the court, he will discover the secret of its origins and, with God's help, will free his people. But archaeologists working in the region have never managed to substantiate the biblical narrative, as to the presence of the Jews in Egypt, there is only one archaeological discovery may confirm it. Many books have been written on the subject, but the debate is for the most part remained quiet in order not to offend believers.

    "Without historical evidence, we are forced to say that some things are never arrived: it is the job of an archaeologist," Hawas. The site is a two-hour drive from Cairo, after the bridge Mubarak, in the northern Sinai, in a region called East Qantara. For nearly a decade, archaeologists returning Egyptian soil with the help of surrounding towns daily to try to unearth remnants of the past. This desolate landscape, which is the monotony broken only by a few electrical towers, has generated enthusiasm because it confirms stories told in hieroglyphics or going back to antiquity. The archaeological remains dating in fact more or less at the time, according to the Bible, the Jews fled Egypt and then spent forty years wandering in the wilderness in search of the Promised Land. "The exodus is a myth," said Hawas front of a wall built during the period known as the New Kingdom.
     

    Mjolnir

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    Twitterers Paid to Spread Israeli Propaganda Internet Warfare Team Unveiled
    http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/ne...ropaganda-internet-warfare-team-unveiled.html
    by Jonathan Cook in Nazareth​

    The passionate support for Israel expressed on talkback sections of websites, internet chat forums, blogs, Twitters and Facebook may not be all that it seems.

    Israel’s foreign ministry is reported to be establishing a special undercover team of paid workers whose job it will be to surf the internet 24 hours a day spreading positive news about Israel.

    Internet-savvy Israeli youngsters, mainly recent graduates and demobilised soldiers with language skills, are being recruited to pose as ordinary surfers while they provide the government’s line on the Middle East conflict.

    “To all intents and purposes the internet is a theatre in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and we must be active in that theatre, otherwise we will lose,” said Ilan Shturman, who is responsible for the project.

    The existence of an “internet warfare team” came to light when it was included in this year’s foreign ministry budget. About $150,000 has been set aside for the first stage of development, with increased funding expected next year.

    The team will fall under the authority of a large department already dealing with what Israelis term “hasbara”, officially translated as “public explanation” but more usually meaning propaganda. That includes not only government public relations work but more secretive dealings the ministry has with a battery of private organisations and initiatives that promote Israel’s image in print, on TV and online.

    In an interview this month with the Calcalist, an Israeli business newspaper, Mr Shturman, the deputy director of the ministry’s hasbara department, admitted his team would be working undercover.

    “Our people will not say: ‘Hello, I am from the hasbara department of the Israeli Foreign Ministry and I want to tell you the following.’ Nor will they necessarily identify themselves as Israelis,” he said. “They will speak as net-surfers and as citizens, and will write responses that will look personal but will be based on a prepared list of messages that the foreign ministry developed.”

    Rona Kuperboim, a columnist for Ynet, Israel’s most popular news website, denounced the initiative, saying it indicated that Israel had become a “thought-police state”.

    She added that “good PR cannot make the reality in the occupied territories prettier. Children are being killed, homes are being bombed, and families are starved.”

    Her column was greeted by several talkbackers asking how they could apply for a job with the foreign ministry’s team.

    The project is a formalisation of public relations practices the ministry developed specifically for Israel’s assault on Gaza in December and January.

    “During Operation Cast Lead we appealed to Jewish communities abroad and with their help we recruited a few thousand volunteers, who were joined by Israeli volunteers,” Mr Shturman said.

    “We gave them background material and hasbara material, and we sent them to represent the Israeli point of view on news websites and in polls on the internet.”

    The Israeli army also had one of the most popular sites on the video-sharing site YouTube and regularly uploaded clips, although it was criticised by human rights groups for misleading viewers about what was shown in its footage.

    Mr Shturman said that during the war the ministry had concentrated its activities on European websites where audiences were more hostile to Israeli policy. High on its list of target sites for the new project would be BBC Online and Arabic websites, he added.

    Elon Gilad, who heads the internet team, told Calcalist that many people had contacted the ministry offering their services during the Gaza attack. “People just asked for information, and afterwards we saw that the information was distributed all over the internet.”

    He suggested that there had been widespread government cooperation, with the ministry of absorption handing over contact details for hundreds of recent immigrants to Israel, who wrote pro-Israel material for websites in their native languages.

    The new team is expected to increase the ministry’s close coordination with a private advocacy group, giyus.org (Give Israel Your United Support). About 50,000 activists are reported to have downloaded a programme called Megaphone that sends an alert to their computers when an article critical of Israel is published. They are then supposed to bombard the site with comments supporting Israel.

    Nasser Rego of Ilam, a group based in Nazareth that monitors the Israeli media, said Arab organisations in Israel were among those regularly targeted by hasbara groups for “character assassination”. He was concerned the new team would try to make such work appear more professional and convincing.

    “If these people are misrepresenting who they are, we can guess they won’t worry too much about misrepresenting the groups and individuals they write about. Their aim, it’s clear, will be to discredit those who stand for human rights and justice for the Palestinians.”

    When The National called the foreign ministry, Yigal Palmor, a spokesman, denied the existence of the internet team, though he admitted officials were stepping up exploitation of new media.

    He declined to say which comments by Mr Shturman or Mr Gilad had been misrepresented by the Hebrew-language media, and said the ministry would not be taking any action over the reports.

    Israel has developed an increasingly sophisticated approach to new media since it launched a “Brand Israel” campaign in 2005.

    Market research persuaded officials that Israel should play up good news about business success, and scientific and medical breakthroughs involving Israelis.

    Mr Shturman said his staff would seek to use websites to improve “Israel’s image as a developed state that contributes to the quality of the environment and to humanity”.

    David Saranga, head of public relations at Israel’s consulate-general in New York, which has been leading the push for more upbeat messages about Israel, argued last week that Israel was at a disadvantage against pro-Palestinian advocacy.

    “Unlike the Muslim world, which has hundreds of millions of supporters who have adopted the Palestinian narrative in order to slam Israel, the Jewish world numbers only 13 million,” he wrote in Ynet.

    Israel has become particularly concerned that support is ebbing among the younger generations in Europe and the United States.

    In 2007 it emerged that the foreign ministry was behind a photo-shoot published in Maxim, a popular US men’s magazine, in which female Israeli soldiers posed in swimsuits.

    ********************************************************
    Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. His latest books are “Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East” (Pluto Press) and “Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in Human Despair” (Zed Books). His website is www.jkcook.net.
     

    jms

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    I read the first post with intent only to think of modern day preachers who use gimmics and dog and pony shows to attract people and their money . You probably are saying to your self that I am a negtive person ,however I don't need proof to believe in God . I have read the Bible and believe it to be true . Having said that , there are those who say that God is only a myth that humans have for centeries held as a higher power. I have not died and seen a heaven ,but I can tell you what I feel in my heart and mind and thats good enough for me.
    I would rather believe , be a rightious person, go to heaven , than die then find out there is a higher being to be judged by.

    Just my thoughts and I am off the pulpit now fire away.

    Incoming !!!! :)

    BTW: I didn't read to other post as that was too much for my mind today. :doh:
     

    #1bambam

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    The Nasty New Orleans.
    I read the first post with intent only to think of modern day preachers who use gimmics and dog and pony shows to attract people and their money . You probably are saying to your self that I am a negtive person ,however I don't need proof to believe in God . I have read the Bible and believe it to be true . Having said that , there are those who say that God is only a myth that humans have for centeries held as a higher power. I have not died and seen a heaven ,but I can tell you what I feel in my heart and mind and thats good enough for me.
    I would rather believe , be a rightious person, go to heaven , than die then find out there is a higher being to be judged by.

    Just my thoughts and I am off the pulpit now fire away.

    Incoming !!!! :)

    BTW: I didn't read to other post as that was too much for my mind today. :doh:
    ^^This^^:bigok:
     

    MALIBU12

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    I read the first post with intent only to think of modern day preachers who use gimmics and dog and pony shows to attract people and their money . You probably are saying to your self that I am a negtive person ,however I don't need proof to believe in God . I have read the Bible and believe it to be true . Having said that , there are those who say that God is only a myth that humans have for centeries held as a higher power. I have not died and seen a heaven ,but I can tell you what I feel in my heart and mind and thats good enough for me.
    I would rather believe , be a rightious person, go to heaven , than die then find out there is a higher being to be judged by.

    Just my thoughts and I am off the pulpit now fire away.

    Incoming !!!! :)

    BTW: I didn't read to other post as that was too much for my mind today. :doh:

    +1
     

    Fisherman

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    I read the first post with intent only to think of modern day preachers who use gimmics and dog and pony shows to attract people and their money . You probably are saying to your self that I am a negtive person ,however I don't need proof to believe in God . I have read the Bible and believe it to be true . Having said that , there are those who say that God is only a myth that humans have for centeries held as a higher power. I have not died and seen a heaven ,but I can tell you what I feel in my heart and mind and thats good enough for me.
    I would rather believe , be a rightious person, go to heaven , than die then find out there is a higher being to be judged by.

    Just my thoughts and I am off the pulpit now fire away.

    Incoming !!!! :)

    BTW: I didn't read to other post as that was too much for my mind today. :doh:

    ^ This Again! ^
     

    Mjolnir

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    It's a Start Anyway

    I read the first post with intent only to think of modern day preachers who use gimmics and dog and pony shows to attract people and their money . You probably are saying to your self that I am a negtive person ,however I don't need proof to believe in God . I have read the Bible and believe it to be true . Having said that , there are those who say that God is only a myth that humans have for centeries held as a higher power. I have not died and seen a heaven ,but I can tell you what I feel in my heart and mind and thats good enough for me.

    I would rather believe , be a rightious person, go to heaven , than die then find out there is a higher being to be judged by.

    Just my thoughts and I am off the pulpit now fire away.

    Incoming !!!! :)

    BTW: I didn't read to other post as that was too much for my mind today. :doh:

    Hmm, you like all who +1'd it and most people cannot seem to separate a book written by... commissioned by Satanist King James from the Source of Creation. I find that odd.

    The article does NOT refute the Source of Creation at all. It disputes the Myths found within the Bible. I don't advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater and neither does the source. Seek and ye shall find (truth in this instance). YOUR history has been stolen; not mine. The implications are HUGE - and you (collectively) see it not. The Khazar Turks have "pulled the wool over your eyes" ("fleeced" you, if you will) and only a precious few care enough to investigate. They laugh at the Goyiim (i.e., "cattle" - that would be YOU in their eyes) because they do not read. This is very much true and very much sad.

    Perhaps one day you'll reconsider.

    P.S.

    Thanks for actually reading the first part.
     

    Paintball

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    Throughout time, skeptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archeology has confirmed it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts and teachings have had a positive influence on societies and cultures throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by pseudo-science, psychology, and political movements, yet it remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. It is a book that has transformed countless lives and cultures throughout the last 2000 years. No matter how its opponents try to attack, destroy, or discredit it, the Bible remains; its veracity and impact on lives is unmistakable. The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s Word and is supernaturally protected by Him. It should not surprise us that, no matter how the Bible is attacked, it always comes out unchanged and unscathed. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Mark 13:31). After looking at the evidence, one can say without a doubt that, yes, the Bible is truly God’s Word.
     

    my-rifle

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    While I don't know that King James was a satanist, he certainly was a politician who commissioned the creation of a bible that suited and justified his political ends. An interesting book is "Mis-quoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman in which he points out that the creation of an English-language new testament was somewhat of a fabrication, because it was translated directly from the Latin version which was NOT translated from the (more or less) original Greek. It was created un-sourced and full of mistakes.

    Even "the original" texts were simply oral traditions handed down for decades through many different channels and eventually bound together by the Council of Nicaea. Since all the dissenters were killed as heretics and all the original texts burned, so that Christianity would have one creed, it became, so to speak, "bible".

    When the translator was asked to produce his original Greek text from which he sourced his Latin texts, he magically produced one which was apparently translated back from the Latin one, as it differed from the older Greek texts in all the same way as the Latin version from which the English came. Of course no one could back up this "new" version of the Greek, but no matter. The powers that be loved the English version, and it became the new original. It is what we use today. But no matter. It's religion. Take it for what it is.

    Paintball, can you document your claim that archaeology has proven the stories in the new testament to be historical? Not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard any reputable research that proved much beyond this city was here, and that one there. Of course there's a lot I haven't heard.

    And by the way the integrity of the new testament has been protected not by God, but by the sword. Until very recently anyone who disagreed with the contents of the new testament were killed. Since all pre-dating source material was burned during the dark ages, it's a bit difficult to prove the contents one way or the other.
     
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    Paintball

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    Paintball, can you document your claim that archaeology has proven the stories in the new testament to be historical? Not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard any reputable research that proved much beyond this city was here, and that one there. Of course there's a lot I haven't heard.QUOTE]


    The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:21-28) and delivered the sermon on the bread of life (John 6:25-59).

    The house of Peter at Capernaum where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others (Matthew 8:14-16).

    Jacob's well where Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman (John 4).

    The Pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a crippled man (John 5:1-14).

    The Pool of Siloam in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a blind man (John 9:1-4).

    The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried (Acts 18:12-17).

    The theater at Ephesus, Turkey.The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred (Acts 19:29).

    Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard (Acts 23:33-35).

    Caiaphas Ossuary: An ossuary is a stone or pottery box in which the remains of the deceased person is buried (ancient casket). The Caiaphas ossuary bears the inscription “Yeosef bar Qafa” and is dated to the second temple period. Yeosef (Joseph) was the son of Caiaphas. This verifies that there was a high priest at the time of Jesus and his name was Caiaphas. Caiaphas was the priest that presided over the false trial of Jesus (Matthew 26:57-67).

    Crucified Man: This is the remains of a full skeleton of a man crucified in the first century. The foot bone contained a bent crucifixion nail. There have been those that argued that the crucifixion of Christ was a hoax because that was not a form of capital punishment in Christ’s time. These remains verify that crucifixion was being done and that the crucifixion of Jesus was done exactly as outlined in the biblical narrative.

    Pilate Inscription: This stone tablet was found in Caesarea on the Mediterranean coast. The tablet was found in the theater of Caesarea and bears an inscription mentioning the name of Pontius Pilate the procurator of Judea, and the Tiberium, which was an edifice built in honor of the Emperor Tiberius by Pilate. There has been much written to discredit the biblical narrative in regard to the existence of Pilate; this tablet clearly says that it was from "Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea" and verifies that he was a person that lived during the time of Jesus, exactly as written in the biblical narrative.

    These finds are interesting from an educational point of view and do validate the historical accuracy of the Bible. But for the believer, finds like these should add nothing to our understanding of the importance or credibility of the Bible. The Bible is the written word of God, inerrant and infallible and was God-breathed to human writers and is useful for edifying and teaching believers in the ways of God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The Bible needs no corroborative evidence to verify its truth, but it is interesting to note that no scientific or archeological find has ever disproven a single word of Scripture, and many, many findings have attested to its historical and scientific accuracy.
     

    Hitman

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    I find the recent "character" of some postings interesting to say the least.
    .


    Same here.

    Man today is no more trustworthy than Man from 5,000 years ago.

    I guess it's a good thing Christians worship God, and not man.
    pardon.gif
     
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    my-rifle

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    Paintball, can you document your claim that archaeology has proven the stories in the new testament to be historical? Not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard any reputable research that proved much beyond this city was here, and that one there. Of course there's a lot I haven't heard.QUOTE]


    The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit (Mark 1:21-28) and delivered the sermon on the bread of life (John 6:25-59).
    Is there evidence that proves that Jesus cured a man there?
    The house of Peter at Capernaum where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others (Matthew 8:14-16).
    Is there evidence that proves the house was that of the man, Peter named in the new testament? Is there evidence that proves Jesus healed that man's mother in law?
    Jacob's well where Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman (John 4).
    Is there evidence that proves that the well belonged to the man, Jacob named in the new testament?
    The Pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a crippled man (John 5:1-14).
    What evidence proves the well is "The Pool of Bethesda", AND is there evidence that proves that Jesus (specifically) healed a crippled man there?
    The Pool of Siloam in Jerusalem, where Jesus healed a blind man (John 9:1-4).
    What evidence proves the well is "The Pool of Siloam", AND is there evidence that proves that Jesus (specifically) healed a blind man there?
    The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried (Acts 18:12-17).
    You do realize that Acts is not part of the bible.
    The theater at Ephesus, Turkey.The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred (Acts 19:29).

    Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard (Acts 23:33-35).

    Caiaphas Ossuary: An ossuary is a stone or pottery box in which the remains of the deceased person is buried (ancient casket). The Caiaphas ossuary bears the inscription “Yeosef bar Qafa” and is dated to the second temple period. Yeosef (Joseph) was the son of Caiaphas. This verifies that there was a high priest at the time of Jesus and his name was Caiaphas. Caiaphas was the priest that presided over the false trial of Jesus (Matthew 26:57-67).

    Crucified Man: This is the remains of a full skeleton of a man crucified in the first century. The foot bone contained a bent crucifixion nail. There have been those that argued that the crucifixion of Christ was a hoax because that was not a form of capital punishment in Christ’s time. These remains verify that crucifixion was being done and that the crucifixion of Jesus was done exactly as outlined in the biblical narrative.
    Does this prove that the man, Jesus was crucified this way?
    Pilate Inscription: This stone tablet was found in Caesarea on the Mediterranean coast. The tablet was found in the theater of Caesarea and bears an inscription mentioning the name of Pontius Pilate the procurator of Judea, and the Tiberium, which was an edifice built in honor of the Emperor Tiberius by Pilate. There has been much written to discredit the biblical narrative in regard to the existence of Pilate; this tablet clearly says that it was from "Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea" and verifies that he was a person that lived during the time of Jesus, exactly as written in the biblical narrative.
    I hadn't heard anyone claiming that Pontius Pilate didn't exist. Curious.
    These finds are interesting from an educational point of view and do validate the historical accuracy of the Bible. But for the believer, finds like these should add nothing to our understanding of the importance or credibility of the Bible. The Bible is the written word of God, inerrant and infallible and was God-breathed to human writers and is useful for edifying and teaching believers in the ways of God: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The Bible needs no corroborative evidence to verify its truth, but it is interesting to note that no scientific or archeological find has ever disproven a single word of Scripture, and many, many findings have attested to its historical and scientific accuracy.

    I don't suggest that the claims made by the new testament are wrong. I do take issue though with attempts to use science to prove the claims of religions. My experience suggests that the claims of pseudo-science that discoveries prove the claims of the new testament are specious.

    As you say, the new testament needs no corroboration, so why try? Any attempt to do so makes it appear that the faith of Christians must be proven to be real, and I feel that cheapens their religion and their faith. It certainly opens a new avenue by which it may be attacked. It's faith. It's not something that can be proven. We can only hope that that faith is used for good instead of evil.
     

    jms

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    My question to all here , Why would any of the men that wrote about Christ put their lives on the line for a lie if it were not true? All of the of the men with the exception of John were put to death. That list also included the man called Paul , who was responsible for most of the books in the New Testament
     

    my-rifle

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    My question to all here , Why would any of the men that wrote about Christ put their lives on the line for a lie if it were not true? All of the of the men with the exception of John were put to death. That list also included the man called Paul , who was responsible for most of the books in the New Testament

    How do you know they were killed? Because it's in the bible. Circular reasoning.

    I believe Paul is the guy who invented Christianity as we know it. Odds are the original Jesus guy taught things that Jews could understand. Paul was the European who got hold of a basic idea, then adapted it to fit the Roman culture. I'll bet the only thing he kept from the original was the monotheism.

    Christianity is so far divorced from Judaism that they could easily be two unrelated religions. In fact, I think Christianity is more similar to Islam than to Judaism.
     

    jms

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    First let me say I am not one to argue about the bible. It's so beautiful to know we have the freedom to believe and practice what we want in religion in this country.

    But to use a different analogy how do we know what battles took place in the revolution war or civil war? How do we know that Thomas Jefferson wrote the Delcration of Independence ? How do we know for sure Thomas Edsion invented the light bulb? Or maybe Alex. Grayham Bell invented the telephone ? Books ,Books ,Books , none of us were there, but we put our faith in these books .
    You are not forced to believe any of this ,however if the extreme Muslins have their way you will be forced to their reliegon or die.



    England is being overrun with Muslins as we speak. They have their sites set on the U.S. as well . Make up your own mind, as for me I will fight for what I believe in till death. Wishing you well in your future . Good discussion my friend.
     

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