I just dont get the 40 cal.

[edman87k5]

If knockdown power, bullet weight retention and everything else is such a myth, why doesn't everyone just carry a .22?
I am not going to argue which is best, I have multiples of all 3. I really liked 9mm when it was $4 a box, but as prices went up, I drifted back towards .40. Wife likes 9mm because it is easier to shoot for her, therefore she can actually make follow up shots hit target and not flinch when squeezing the trigger. I actually prefer .40 for various reasons, but also like 9mm and .45 for their own reasons. I will say I have seen .45 keyhole more than any other ammo I have ever shot.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

You have seen modern pistol ammo key hole? Was all the .45 fired by the same gun?

 

[Aussiecajun]

Its cool, he has spares

No offense to anyone, but is it wrong that this is what I expected to see a lot of when I moved from Australia to the South?

 

[JBP55]

You have seen modern pistol ammo key hole? Was all the .45 fired by the same gun?

I have seen modern pistol ammunition keyhole from two different .40 caliber G35 Glocks and they both had more than 100,000 rounds fired. None of the other G35 pistols with similar rounds fired had this issue.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

All barrels wear differently. I had a 19 that started key-holing at about 85k and another that never did and I replaced the barrel at around 150k total rounds. I don't think what edman saw was key-holing. It's doesn't happen very often in pistols. When It does happen it is a sign of a mechanical issue, I.e a shot out barrel. It has nothing to do with ammo or caliber.

 

[dwr461]

If knockdown power, bullet weight retention and everything else is such a myth, why doesn't everyone just carry a .22?

Bullet weight retention isn't a myth. The more weight a bullet retains the more momentum it'll have allowing it to penetrate deeply. Knock down power in any normal defense caliber handgun doesn't happen. There just isn't enough energy being transferred with knock a grown person off of their feet. It's a matter of very simple physics. Go watch shootings on security footage on various websites. No one will be knocked down by the energy transfer. Some will fall down most will keep moving like nothing happened despite being shot.

22 LR bullets will penetrate deeply enough to hit vital areas if they don't hit bones etc. This happens mostly due to bullet shape not superior power. The more common defense handgun calibers carry enough bullet weight and velocity to be able to penetrate some bones increasing the chance of the bullet hitting a vital area. Rifles and shotguns are in an entirely different power level than handgun calibers and will turn bone pieces into projectiles inside the body.

The first thing you need to do in order to understand how bullets perform after hitting humans is put down the modern gun magazines. Some where on this website was a video posted of a Doctor teaching paramedics the effects of handgun bullet wounds. If someone knows where that was they could post a link for you. I've seen, treated, and saw the x rays afterwards of hundreds of handgun bullet wounds over my career. That video is excellent and totally jibs with the real world. It's 1/2 hour long but is well worth the watching. If you watch it you'll not only understand the effects of bullets better but you'll understand the fundamental mistake in your logic to ask the above question.

I'm at work and cannot look at videos to find the one I'm talking about or I would find it for you
dave

 

[JBP55]

Google Doc Roberts relative to ammunition.

 

[HogHunter1203]

This was posted on another forum a while back and some of you may have seen it already. I'm not anti-.40, but the auther makes a descent/humorous point.

http://www.vintagepistols.com/40isbad.html

 

[Zulu]

Here's why I like the .40
In a pinch it's easier to control off the recoil than the .45
There is a lower chance of collateral damage. My .45 will shoot through cement blocks!
My wife is more willing to handle a .40 than a .45. A .45 won't do her any good if she is too scared of it to shoot it.

All that being said I love my 1911 .45ACP. Nothing compares to it, especially when all the other boys at the range are popping off and my gun sounds like a cannon! But I'm not likely to carry it around town.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Your thoughts on penetration are inaccurate. One of the key pluses of .40 is its ability to penetrate.

 

[Bayoupiper]

There's an element of truth in there, HogHunter.

The .40 S&W was indeed specifically engineered to be the same overall length as a 9mm cartridge, so it could fit into 9mm sized pistols.

Regarding recoil, that part of it is NOT correct. The FBI found out right away that the recoil of the full-boat 10mm bordered on unmanageable. So they created the "10mm Lite", which uses a 180 gr bullet at subsonic velocities and is quite tame to shoot out of the all-steel model 1076 pistol they had built. What killed that combination was the spotty reliability of the pistols, and many agents' refusal to carry them because they weighed a ton in addition to the concern over reliability.

The .40 S&W has done quite well, in spite of itself. It is indeed a silk purse made from a sow's ear, is hard on guns, and hard on shooters in certain guns. But it works, both on the range and on the street. It is, without doubt, the most widely-used cartridge in US police circles, and even the US military has gotten into the act; the coasties have been using it for several years now, as have certain elements of the military special operations community.

Consider this... in the Baton Rouge area alone, including Ascension and Livingston, every law enforcement agency that issues a pistol to its people, except for the possum cops (Wildlife & Fisheries) and possibly the state ABC people (they issued .357 Sig for a long time, but are going to the .40; may have already) issue the .40.

This is why I bought one in the first place; if/when The Revolution hits, there will be a quantity of this ammunition lying around. And then, of course, my wife decided she wanted to start carrying the caliber... but that's another story.

.

ATC now has Glock 23s.



.

 

[The_Shadow]

About the 10mm S&W1076 & 1026 there was a factory rework of the frame decocker lever as denoted by two punch marks under the decocker lever. Yes the guns were heavier and their criterior for the full power 10mm had changed as they were testing out the 10mm round. This led them to the 180 grain bullet loaded to 980 feedt per second.

One thing to think of is Law Enforcement has a duty to act, they maybe working in close quarters and have other people or officers in close proximity, therefore more control is needed. Also the energy of the ammunition was tailored to fit the criterior, to lessen pass through of shots where someone else other that the intended target maybe struck. Yes they will have the force in numbers and the main objective is to bring the perp to justice rather than kill them on the spot.

There is a resurgance of departments actually reverting back to 9mm...it maybe more for economics & supplies. Some departments are having troube getting ammo in quanity to practice with at resonable pricing, the 9mm guns are also cheaper on the departments budgets. Therefore will safety of the LEO be at risk because of economics of departmental budgets?

Myself as John Q Citizen, I carry the 10mm for what it brings to the table ballisticaly.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

There is a resurgence on Police using 9mm because its finally beginning to sink in that shot placement trumps everything else. Most people can shoot 9mm faster and more accurately than the alternatives. 9mm handguns are far more universal and can be used by 95th Percentile males to 5th Percetile Females. It's also cheaper to shoot in training. More rounds available equals more training.

A effective hit from a 9mm is a million times more desirable than a marginal hit with a 10mm. The reason Law Enforcement by and large abandoned 10mm have nothing to do with wounding vs. killing or over penetration. The reasons are mostly related to the fact the available guns are all big and all fairly crappy, recoil is hard for even skilled and experienced shooters to manage, none of the ammo commercially available from the majors is really all that awesome, and it never proved any more effective in the field then the alternatives. I know you love your 10mm man and your allowed to. Shoot it a bunch but dot believe the hype it's not any better in practice then anything else, in fact, because of recoil and grip issues it's probably worse.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

It's also important to note tht every FBI Armory in the country is FULL of 10mm nobody wants or wants to shoot. It's free. If it was that great it be gone. They have MP5s chambered for it and aren't shooting it.

 

[mcinfantry]

the first human being I ever saw die was late 1997 or early 1998 in Baton Rouge. IIRC it was N. Acadian W and my FTO and I were a couple streets over and hear the gunfire. We drove to the scene of a reported man down. He had run over two blocks before collapsing with a 10mm wound that entered centered below his sternum and had not exited. I saw the shell casings. Had he been armed he could have easily fought until he died. He did ask me to tell his mom he loved her. I never did and i watched him die. he was shot damn near point plank...

 

[edman87k5]

I know what keyholing is. Admittedly one of the guns was a hipoint, but it had under 100 rounds thru it and I saw it keyhole twice with factory ammo as it was mine. Other one was not mine and have no idea on specs of it or past use/ condition. These are the only 2 I have personally ever seen keyhole and both were .45acp.
Again, if it is strictly shot placement as keeps being mentioned, wouldn't a .22 or .22 mag or even 5.7 be a perfect round? Easy to aim, lots of ammo capacity an if you can't make a head or heart shot at 20 yards you need to rethink your hobby.

 

[clem131]

no magic bullet will ever replace good training. you can shoot s&w 500s, if you cant hit vitals consistently you're gonna have problems..... it doesn't matter how much muzzle energy you have

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence. Like I said both of those cases you mentioned are mechanically caused and unrelated to ammo. I think it's fair to say the two guns you mentioned are too blame not .45ACP.

The reason .22 and 5.7 aren't viable in spite of shot placement is because their bullets lack the mass to penetrate deeply enough to be lethal. Can you make head shots at 20yds under stress? On a moving target?

 

[edman87k5]

I have to somewhat disagree, a 22 mag will easily penetrate a body, As will a 5.7.
On the headshot I don't know I've never had to try it under stress or otherwise.

 

[charliepapa]

I have to somewhat disagree, a 22 mag will easily penetrate a body, As will a 5.7.
On the headshot I don't know I've never had to try it under stress or otherwise.

I know a guy that was shot point blank (muzzle to chest) with a 22 magnum, PDX-1. the round fragmented into 3 main pieces and were left in him by the docs. you can actually feel one of them in the skin on his back. he was in the hospital with a chest tube for 2-3 days and released.