Indiana Court Ruling on Illegal Police Entry of Home

[Mac204]

At about 0800 one morning 5 years ago I awoke to banging on my door. The street team decided to pay me a visit. I had just been comissioned a reserve deputy. For some reason they thought I was cookin and selling. I let em in and signed consent. The only thing they found was a safe of guns, a freezer filled with strawberry ice cream, and an unopened bottle of motrin I picked up the night before. The entire team was there. They got it so dead wrong. They left and have never been back.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

At about 0800 one morning 5 years ago I awoke to banging on my door. The street team decided to pay me a visit. I had just been comissioned a reserve deputy. For some reason they thought I was cookin and selling. I let em in and signed consent. The only thing they found was a safe of guns, a freezer filled with strawberry ice cream, and an unopened bottle of motrin I picked up the night before. The entire team was there. They got it so dead wrong. They left and have never been back.

I wonder how that would have worked out for you had you chosen to fight for your right to be right instead?






Mistakes happen. That is one example. There are others. Still the best system in the world.

 

[Bayoupiper]

How do you know they are cops?

If you are a 100% legit, God-fearing, law-abiding citizen who has never done anything to warrant swat coming into your house and disrespecting your whole famiry at 0'dark:30, how do you KNOW they are cops?

With the way you shot last weekend..................




.

 

[Mac204]

I have often wondered that too...but the whole street team in your yard wanting in is pretty intimidating...plus I had nothing to hide...

 

[James Cannon]

I wonder how that would have worked out for you had you chosen to fight for your right to be right instead?

It's not smart to do what the Westboro Baptist Church does... but that doesn't mean we should strip the right for them to do it. There's a big difference in what you should do, and what you should have the freedom to be able to do.

 

[Sin-ster]

I don't know how you know. I said IF you KNOW, like they SCREAM POLICE! POLICE!...did you see that part? Each situation will be different of course.

I totally see where Spanky is going with this one, as it was my first thought as well. You and I both know that I could kick in a door right now and scream, "Police, police!"-- but I would still be there to cause harm.

It's a real problem for any and everyone who is serious about defending their home and loved ones. There should, in theory, be plenty of tell-tale signs to indicate whether the vocal claims are accurate or not. Numerous voices, a sea of flashlights, several attempts to alert you before entry (unless we're talking no-knocks), very specific declarations ("St. Tammany sheriffs, search warrant!") and things of that nature that even a clever crook isn't going to bother with. At the same time, the same zero sum quality of life can work against you in more ways than one.

Given the right (wrong?) set of circumstances, you might not have the chance to identify the people in your home until you've got one of them bathed in 100 lumens from your weapon light-- and vice versa. And that's NOT a good place to be. I see a tactically outfit LEO with Sheriff/Police/DEA markings on their body armor, and move instantly to comply. He sees a threat with an 870 leveled at him. I lose... in a big way.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

I totally see where Spanky is going with this one, as it was my first thought as well. You and I both know that I could kick in a door right now and scream, "Police, police!"-- but I would still be there to cause harm.

It's a real problem for any and everyone who is serious about defending their home and loved ones. There should, in theory, be plenty of tell-tale signs to indicate whether the vocal claims are accurate or not. Numerous voices, a sea of flashlights, several attempts to alert you before entry (unless we're talking no-knocks), very specific declarations ("St. Tammany sheriffs, search warrant!") and things of that nature that even a clever crook isn't going to bother with. At the same time, the same zero sum quality of life can work against you in more ways than one.

Given the right (wrong?) set of circumstances, you might not have the chance to identify the people in your home until you've got one of them bathed in 100 lumens from your weapon light-- and vice versa. And that's NOT a good place to be. I see a tactically outfit LEO with Sheriff/Police/DEA markings on their body armor, and move instantly to comply. He sees a threat with an 870 leveled at him. I lose... in a big way.

I see where SPanky is going also, and while a valid argument, it has nothing to do with the OP. The OP was about refusing nd fighting to let the POLICE in when they do not have a warrant Obviously you would have to know they were the police in order to know they do not have a warrant and thus decide to resist. . What you guys are stating to argue is no knock warrants and someone who may or may not be the police kicking in your door in the middle of the night.

these are two completely different discussions, especially from a 4th Ammendment stand point.

No- knocks- Not really a 4A issue at all, as they have a warrant. the main issue is the determining wether or not the "intruders" are police or faux-police. The problem is thta the wrong decision on your part could be fatal either way. If it is the police and you think it is not, you either get smoked by guy #1 or #2 if you are lucky enough to get a shot off. If you survive, you just shot a cop in the lawful performance of his duties...good luck with that one.

If you think it is the police and it is not, then you risk being sodomized, covered to Christianity, and made to watch Gilmore GIrl reruns by sadistic marauders.

here is the probelem with the whole "what if it is gangsters dressed like cops" argument....

COULD it happen? Absolutely. Has it happened to people other than fellow gang bangers where a rip was performed? Sure, I am sure there are a handful.

However, it is a POSSIBILITY vs PROBABILITY argument.

ANYTHING is possible. Hell, Ninja Aliens dressed as Ponch from ChiPs could rappel down your chimney in the middle of American Idol screaming POLICIA! is it Probable? Not likely. Life is all about tradeoffs. Especially when opposing courses of action have indirectly proportionally negative consequences. You have to weigh the probability that when your door comes crashing down at 0400, and 6 men in SWAT gear, with SWAT written on it, shining bright lights, holding machine guns, and screaming "POLICE! Don't Move!" come in, it is in fact the police instead of Pookie and Ray Ray the neighborhood crack heads, who made come very rascally purchases off of eBay just to come and steal your VCR.

If you truly research the VERY rare instances in which something similar to the "Fake SWAT", the overwhelming majority of these statistically infinitesimal cases in volve drug dealers trying to rip off or kill other drug dealers. Next thing people will be saying is that the fake SWAt team might make a real mistake thinking you are the bad guy they want to rob...Possible? Yeah. Probable? ABout as much as Spanky writing into his will as the beneficiary of his life insurance.

Lifeis about weighing the odds and making the decisions that most successfully benefit your lifestyle goals. I carry a gun every where I physically and legally can because I know there is a PROBABILITY that i could be violently attacked and want the means to repel such an attack. The ACTUAL PROBABILITY that I could be attacked justifies the cost, inconvenience, awareness, potential legal pitfalls, and all other considerations that come with the decision to carry. Based on the ACTUAL probability, the benefits outweigh the costs--thus I carry. However, while completely possible, and it has happened elsewhere, that I could be engaged by a sniper, I do not carry a counter-sniper rifle and a ghillie suit in my vehicle because it COULD happen. That course of action is not conducive with my lifestyle goals. The costs associated with that decision are not outweighed by the Potential Probability that it could happen. I call it the "Ninjas in the Ceiling Paranoia". People run around trying to prepare for every possibility, which obviously is impossible, instead of focusing their efforts on those things that are most PROBABLE, like NOT having to shoot someone.

Likewise, while it is possible that BG's could dress up like completely believable cops with the intent to fake a felony warrant execution on my home, which by the way is not a quiet and sneaky thing? I know that it is not probable. When the repercussions of taking the, "I am going to shoot anyone who comes through my door because I am a God-fearing citizen who never speeds, and anyone entering my home without permission is either a rapist or government oppressor worthy of execution" approach, is that I will almost definitely be killed, at best, I will be wounded and charged with resisting, and a host of other crimes, I would prefer to take the chances based on current situations because I know 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 it will be the most likely explanation for the situation..the police. If the kicked in your door accidentally, does the hassle of the incident, getting it fixed, etc suck? yes. However, the element of human error is the price we pay to be able to take rapist, murders, human traffickers, drug dealers, pedophiles, etc off the street without losing the lives of future victims and the cops we ask to do the job. EVERYTHING has a cost and an anticipated failure rate. To think otherwise is truly ignorant or intentionally naive.

Could the tactics of BG change to make these types of issues a real concern worthy of more attention or adjusted warrant execution techniques in the future? SUre, but right now, when the police come, it is probably the police.

OP- Warrantless entry- In the actual topic brought up by the OP, there is generally no doubt that the people on the other side of the door are the police and you are making a conscious decisions to resist their entry for whatever your personal reasons are. Here, equally as important,but for different reasons, resistance at the scene is ignorant. if nothing else, the further they take it if they are wrong, the larger your check will become. WHy start a physical confrontation that you will DEFINITELY lose over something you can hash out in court. DOes killing cops who are at the wrong address make you a winner?

The OP knew it was the cops, and when they made a lawful entry, he chose to resist because in his wife beating mind, he THOUGHT, they had no right to be there. Honestly, I do not hink he thought ****, I think that is the strategy his attorney tried to use since the guy was guilty as OJ. However, it can be used to illustrate that unlike "self-defense", what YOU think at the time does not matter. What REALY IS is wat matters.


POSSIBILITY vs PROBABILITY.....it is what defines the paranoid from the cautious.

 

[Swami]

"ANYTHING is possible. Hell, Ninja Aliens dressed as Ponch from ChiPs could rappel down your chimney in the middle of American Idol screaming POLICIA!"

That is going to be my new sig

 

[Nolacopusmc]

"ANYTHING is possible. Hell, Ninja Aliens dressed as Ponch from ChiPs could rappel down your chimney in the middle of American Idol screaming POLICIA!"

That is going to be my new sig

"If my sacrifice can help only one person....."

 

[Sin-ster]

Brannon-- as usual, we're basically on the same page. I don't think Spanky and I were trying to derail the thread-- only follow the new course it had already taken. In the original example, you are indeed correct-- there's no question you're dealing with true LE.

I'm also with you on the probability aspect. As much experience as you have in law enforcement, weapons and training... I have with risk v. reward, probabilities and variance.

Indeed, we should plan and (re)act to the most likely scenario. To do otherwise would indeed be paranoia. In poker, we call that "seeing monsters under the bed"-- fearing your opponent has the better hand, regardless of how improbable that would be based on his actions, past hand histories, behavior and the math. In terms of this discussion, it's downright wasteful and potentially dangerous to succumb to that paranoia. In poker, it's terribly destructive.

Just the same, and as you well know: IMPROBABLE is not synonymous with IMPOSSIBLE.

While we do not spend our entire day pondering and fearing the potential danger of a police entry when we know we've done nothing wrong... the possibility alone should rightfully scare us. And for that matter, it should scare LEO just as much-- if not more. Aside from the obvious danger (not all of we civvies are untrained, unpracticed casuals), I can't imagine anything more horrifying than killing an innocent person trying to defend their loved ones-- especially if you share those same ideals.

I'm here to tell you. 1% of 1% happens more often than you could possibly imagine. While the odds of our hypothetical situation are probably much lower than that, the odds of hitting the Powerball are worse still-- but it does happen. If no-knock warrants (or even "two knock" warrants) become more and more common, the likelihood of kicking in the wrong door increases-- as does the likelihood of finding a startled homeowner with a firearm inside. I think we owe it to ourselves, and each other (civvies and LEO alike) to ensure the chances remain as slim as humanly possible.

Now, I'm no expert on the subject-- and STILL don't want to derail this thread, no matter how dead it may be already. But I've often wondered if "door kicking" as the default option really offers a tactical advantage. You obviously don't want a shoot out in public, so you're limited in that regard. But there's got to be other methods worth exploring, no?

 

[03protege]

This article clearly states that illegal entry is still NOT permitted and the homeowner CAN still persue legal action.

Why is everyone up in arms about probable cause and such?

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Brannon-- as usual, we're basically on the same page. I don't think Spanky and I were trying to derail the thread-- only follow the new course it had already taken. In the original example, you are indeed correct-- there's no question you're dealing with true LE.

I'm also with you on the probability aspect. As much experience as you have in law enforcement, weapons and training... I have with risk v. reward, probabilities and variance.

Indeed, we should plan and (re)act to the most likely scenario. To do otherwise would indeed be paranoia. In poker, we call that "seeing monsters under the bed"-- fearing your opponent has the better hand, regardless of how improbable that would be based on his actions, past hand histories, behavior and the math. In terms of this discussion, it's downright wasteful and potentially dangerous to succumb to that paranoia. In poker, it's terribly destructive.

Just the same, and as you well know: IMPROBABLE is not synonymous with IMPOSSIBLE.

While we do not spend our entire day pondering and fearing the potential danger of a police entry when we know we've done nothing wrong... the possibility alone should rightfully scare us. And for that matter, it should scare LEO just as much-- if not more. Aside from the obvious danger (not all of we civvies are untrained, unpracticed casuals), I can't imagine anything more horrifying than killing an innocent person trying to defend their loved ones-- especially if you share those same ideals.

I'm here to tell you. 1% of 1% happens more often than you could possibly imagine. While the odds of our hypothetical situation are probably much lower than that, the odds of hitting the Powerball are worse still-- but it does happen. If no-knock warrants (or even "two knock" warrants) become more and more common, the likelihood of kicking in the wrong door increases-- as does the likelihood of finding a startled homeowner with a firearm inside. I think we owe it to ourselves, and each other (civvies and LEO alike) to ensure the chances remain as slim as humanly possible.

Now, I'm no expert on the subject-- and STILL don't want to derail this thread, no matter how dead it may be already. But I've often wondered if "door kicking" as the default option really offers a tactical advantage. You obviously don't want a shoot out in public, so you're limited in that regard. But there's got to be other methods worth exploring, no?

I understand, and I like the "monster under the bed" reference...I will start using that along with my "ninjas in the shadows" LOL

I just want to make sure people understand there is a difference between, no-knocks, and the warrantless entry topic of the OP.

Otherwise, all valid pointss in your post.

 

[PAPACHUCK]

After reading this entire thread, it makes me think of one thing.......


The world went to sh!t when stupid stopped being fatal. Ponder that thought for a while.

 

[PAPACHUCK]

That's why I despise Democrats.

 

[PAPACHUCK]

You know....Democrats.......those devoid of personal responsibility, those who have no drive of their own, who parisiticly leech their life sustenance off of the rest of us, those who have no thought process of compassion for the people around them in life, those who think they are owed something just because they exist........and those who facilitate the leeches( those who vote "D")....and those who list a (D) behind their name and provide the vessel for the leeches to survive.

 

[James Cannon]

Why do people have to be such *********** about democrats?

Back in Missouri, it was a toss up between who would be the stronger gun-rights supporter, a Dem or a Rep, and given all the people that vote on such a single issue, and the NRA's grading, a lot of people voted Democrat just for that reason. Not everywhere in the country does "Democrat" and "Republican" mean the same as it might here in Louisiana.

Maybe if some of you close minded, judgmental, *********** could gain some perspective, you'd be less inflammatory and worry more about your OWN principles.

 

[PAPACHUCK]

Your error is in who's mind is really closed.

We see what we see, life is about perspective.

 

[Emperor]

Why do people have to be such********* about democrats?

Back in Missouri, it was a toss up between who would be the stronger gun-rights supporter, a Dem or a Rep, and given all the people that vote on such a single issue, and the NRA's grading, a lot of people voted Democrat just for that reason. Not everywhere in the country does "Democrat" and "Republican" mean the same as it might here in Louisiana.

Maybe if some of you close minded, judgmental, ************* could gain some perspective, you'd be less inflammatory and worry more about your OWN principles.

I don't think that is the "Democrats" being assailed.

 

[Hitman]

Maybe if some of you close minded, judgmental, jackass mother f*ckers .

Wuusaa...relax some.

 

[James Cannon]

Wuusaa...relax some.

I just get tired of the one-sided constant bashing of 50% of the entire nation. Yea, I might have never voted for a democrat, but I know some very upstanding people who have/do, and it's ****ing insulting to watch some of the members here (many) go on and on about it. So maybe I'll just start firing back now and then. Tit for tat.