It's official: 5.56 sucks
- Thread starter JadeRaven
- Start date
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The arguments over larger calibers, Radcliffe says, are normal in military circles where emotions over guns and bullets can run high.
"One of the things I've discovered in guns is that damned near everyone is an expert," he says. "And they all have opinions."
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Oh really, hadn't noticed that before!
The arguments over larger calibers, Radcliffe says, are normal in military circles where emotions over guns and bullets can run high.
"One of the things I've discovered in guns is that damned near everyone is an expert," he says. "And they all have opinions."
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Oh really, hadn't noticed that before!
Being such a light weight bullet, photons hitting the M855 in daylight actually slow it down and change its trajectory, significantly impacting terminal ballistics.
The reason for putting a light on an M4 would be to hit the rear of the bullet fired with photons, increasing its speed exponentially. Also, should the enemy also be shooting anything in 5.56 your light would actually stop their bullets in mid air, much like how Neo stopped the bullets fired at him at the end of The Matrix (except that was purely fictional, as the .50AE has been scientifically proven to be the baddest assest round available, unable to be stopped by photons or any other supernatural forces).
I was on the periphary of that testing. Here are a couple of reasons I don't think it flew.
-First off only 6.8mm was ever tested by the Army in any sort of an offical way.
-The personalities behind 6.8mm are very polarizing. Unfortunately that was enough to make some evaluators say that no matter how great it was it wasn't happening on their watch. Sad but true.
-Some very real logistics concerns about changing calibers in the middle of a two front land war were raised and their wasn't a great enough improvment in capability to motivate folks to overcome them.
-The customers that 6.8 SPC was concieved for were having good results using the Mk 262 Mod 0 round which took some of the fire out of their advocacy.
-Big Conventional Army wasn't interested and without Big Army there will be no new caliber, end of story. The money just ain't there.
-Several units raised issues about using a proprietary round and just how that would effect the covert nature of their missions. I.E. its one thing to leave brass on the ground in 5.56mm which can be found anywhere its another to leave brass on the ground that says "Hey US SOF was here".
-The original intent was to only have to swap out uppers, that started to creep into new uppers, new magazines etc.
-The folks who really needed a new CQB cartridge(thats all 6.8 SPC was really intended to be) had access to 7.62mmx54mm ammo and the non-standard launchers to use it, in some instances the DSA FAL OSW, and several other platforms.
-The whole communtiy wasn't screaming we need a new caliber. The movement was always sort of an underground thing and never had broad support across USSOCOM or the JSOC.
-When the folks at JSOC did their testing they acknowledged it was better just not better enough. Keep in mind they were bringing the HK 417 online at the time.
-The XM8 was in the process of dying a loud ugly death and some of the REMFs involved were afraid to float a new small arms balloon.
-Lastly, the production ammo never reached the performance milestones the prototype hand built stuff set.
-First off only 6.8mm was ever tested by the Army in any sort of an offical way.
-The personalities behind 6.8mm are very polarizing. Unfortunately that was enough to make some evaluators say that no matter how great it was it wasn't happening on their watch. Sad but true.
-Some very real logistics concerns about changing calibers in the middle of a two front land war were raised and their wasn't a great enough improvment in capability to motivate folks to overcome them.
-The customers that 6.8 SPC was concieved for were having good results using the Mk 262 Mod 0 round which took some of the fire out of their advocacy.
-Big Conventional Army wasn't interested and without Big Army there will be no new caliber, end of story. The money just ain't there.
-Several units raised issues about using a proprietary round and just how that would effect the covert nature of their missions. I.E. its one thing to leave brass on the ground in 5.56mm which can be found anywhere its another to leave brass on the ground that says "Hey US SOF was here".
-The original intent was to only have to swap out uppers, that started to creep into new uppers, new magazines etc.
-The folks who really needed a new CQB cartridge(thats all 6.8 SPC was really intended to be) had access to 7.62mmx54mm ammo and the non-standard launchers to use it, in some instances the DSA FAL OSW, and several other platforms.
-The whole communtiy wasn't screaming we need a new caliber. The movement was always sort of an underground thing and never had broad support across USSOCOM or the JSOC.
-When the folks at JSOC did their testing they acknowledged it was better just not better enough. Keep in mind they were bringing the HK 417 online at the time.
-The XM8 was in the process of dying a loud ugly death and some of the REMFs involved were afraid to float a new small arms balloon.
-Lastly, the production ammo never reached the performance milestones the prototype hand built stuff set.
Interesting treatise; and it all even makes sense...
You said 7.62x54??? Did you mean Mekong Match/aka 7.62x39? That old rimmed 7.62x54, and the weapons chambered for it, would be quite the overkill for CQB.
Sort of like making entry with a Garand...
.
Never , ever , joke about a Garand . It's un-American .
A few points. First off, the penetrator in the M885 is pretty frikkin' tiny. Looks like someone broke the tip off of a pencil. (Only, you know, made from hardened steel instead of graphite...) The rest of the bullet is good old copper-jacketed lead. Unless you're shooting at something armored, it's not going to make any difference one way or the other.
Secondly, depending on the model of M-4, our guys are using rifles with 10.5-14" long barrels. This seriously drops the muzzle velocity of the round. If it's not going fast enough to tumble & shatter (2000 fps, if memory serves), then it's just going to punch a .22 caliber hole clean through while the temporary cavity stays temporary.
Finally, the terrorists over there are hopping up their guys on a mix of meth & heroin before engaging our guys. I'm sure our LEO contingent can imagine the joys of stopping someone strung out on meth and feeling even less pain than normal...
I do agree with the problems involved with trying to shoot through adobe walls with a poodle-shooter, though. My solution would be to get more M240s into the hands of our troops over there. Say, one per squad instead of the current one per platoon. More grenade launchers & "master key" type shotguns would probably help as well. (GLs for dealing with cover, shotguns for close combat stopping power)
Secondly, depending on the model of M-4, our guys are using rifles with 10.5-14" long barrels. This seriously drops the muzzle velocity of the round. If it's not going fast enough to tumble & shatter (2000 fps, if memory serves), then it's just going to punch a .22 caliber hole clean through while the temporary cavity stays temporary.
Finally, the terrorists over there are hopping up their guys on a mix of meth & heroin before engaging our guys. I'm sure our LEO contingent can imagine the joys of stopping someone strung out on meth and feeling even less pain than normal...
I do agree with the problems involved with trying to shoot through adobe walls with a poodle-shooter, though. My solution would be to get more M240s into the hands of our troops over there. Say, one per squad instead of the current one per platoon. More grenade launchers & "master key" type shotguns would probably help as well. (GLs for dealing with cover, shotguns for close combat stopping power)
1. What's everyone else saposto do?
2. That would require restructuring etc (240 is a Machinegunners weapon, not a regular infantryman's) (Still an 03, but a different unit structure.)
Probably just refering to how different light conditions call for adjustment in sighting like the old saying ... lights up, sights up.
Good question. Here is what made it offical in my opinion. It was a test conducted using Army money, by Army personnel acting in an offical capacity in a way sanctioned by a chain of command. It is also offical in my book because it wasn't conducted by or witnessed by vendors. The vendors were simply asked to provide rifles and bullets and then escorted off the range so to speak. The test was conducted because a member unit of the Army SOF Community thought they had a better mouse trap. In the end nearly everyone agreed it was better, however most didn't think it was better enough. That being said there are for certain 6.8 guns downrange as we speak taking the lives of bad dudes, they just aren't on the books.
LSP, good call on the 7.62x54R. I wasnt thinking clearly.
They keep Hadji from sticking his head up or flanking the squad while the 240 works on turning his cover into concealment. That whole "teamwork" thing rearing it's ugly head.
Going from 0311 to 0331 is not all that difficult. It's not like we're talking training them up to 0317 or 0326 at the drop of a hat... Another option would be to issue AR-10 type rifles to troops deploying to the Mideast. Advantage there is that it'd have the same manual of arms as the poodle-shooter. Downside, of course, would be the cost. Not to mention the appropriations circus involved...
The AP spreads Da Troof, Da Whole Troof, and Nothing But Da Troof, with no agenda, or bias what so ever. Just like Faux Spews. The medias task is Infotainment Propaganda, they do it well. When a person sits in front of the TV they are being fooled, when they read the newspaper, they are all distorting the same stories. Shop around, buy up a bunch of different newspapers, all the same, minus the local gossip. Channel surf and you'll here the same stories being pounded into your head all day long. The media thinks we are all so stupid, but as long as they can keep most of us distracted, I guess they're correct.
I know as well as you do that AP is full of crap most all of the time.
I just posted this up and gave it that title in an attempt to poke fun and get some people going.
Although I do think that the .223 is pretty damn wimpy compared to 7.62x39 or .308. And the fact is pretty simple that the AR platform totally sucks and can't hold a candle to the AK.
(again, poking fun
)
