Mechanic help?

[kcinnick]

The heater not working is another sign of a blockage in the system.

According to the interwebz it is also a symptom of air and possible water pump. I have got the reverse flow kit, I am going to have to figure it out tomorrow. I am going in the morning to get a new gas pedal for my truck since a dumbass cut my pedal in half at all star last time I went to get an oil change without telling me. (My wifes Rav4 she is getting tomorrow is now not coming from Allstar, it would have if they would have not cut my pedal in half, poor salesman, it wasn't his fault) After that I will try out the reverse flow kit and see if that works. I guess if that doesn't work I will hold on to the car until I can get it fixed and sell it private party. The stealership only wanted to give 2k for the car with 67k miles on it. I bet I could sell it in a week or two for 3k even though its not in the best shape in the world (hole in bumper from trailer hitch, dent in side from CRV). Worst case scenario I will donate it to one of those charity places for a 7k or 8k tax ride off, that will get me about what the dealer wants to trade it for off my taxes.... I better stop my early am rambling now

 

[brfd557]

I have to agree with HEROHOG I believe he hit the nail on the head, sounds like it is blocked need to flush it! Keep us posted

 

[herohog]

I dismissed the water pump because he stated he has good circulation. If he can see water flowing in the radiator with the cap off the pump is more than likely good. If he has refilled the system as he has stated, the system SHOULD be mostly purged of air although an air bubble in the system IS possible.

With the engine COLD, remove the heater hose that is easiest to reach that is also the highest in the system. Set your temp control in the car to defrost and as hot as the controls will allow. Make sure the radiator is FULL and cap the radiator. Start the car. You SHOULD see water squirting out of either the hose or where the hose was connected. If not, that is due to either a bad pump or a blockage.

Your flush kit should have an adapter that will allow you to hook the garden hose to the heater hose and force water back through the system. Do that with the engine OFF and the radiator cap OFF. Get a section of hose and then use it to hook the garden hose up to where you unattached the heater hose and repeat the flush in the other direction.

Refill the system. leave that hose loose until water comes out there when filling the radiator if possible THEN clamp it down to make sure the air is out of it. That may not be possible but if you fill the radiator, seal the radiator, then run it with the heater always set to hot/defrost it will purge the air eventually.

 

[kcinnick]

I dismissed the water pump because he stated he has good circulation. If he can see water flowing in the radiator with the cap off the pump is more than likely good. If he has refilled the system as he has stated, the system SHOULD be mostly purged of air although an air bubble in the system IS possible.

There indeed is coolant flowing through the highest point of the coolant system, which happens to be just under the radiator cap in a 2003 Dodge neon. I will be honest, I don't know what normal is. It can be hard to see exactly how much is flowing since hot liquid periodically gushes out at you.

With the engine COLD, remove the heater hose that is easiest to reach that is also the highest in the system. Set your temp control in the car to defrost and as hot as the controls will allow. Make sure the radiator is FULL and cap the radiator. Start the car. You SHOULD see water squirting out of either the hose or where the hose was connected. If not, that is due to either a bad pump or a blockage.

It is easy to remove the hose from the radiator cap which is also the thermostat housing. This would leave only the thermostat housing next to the block, I can guarantee coolant will come out from there, is that the best place to do this test. You really can't see the fluid level at the top of the radiator, I know it is full because I took the hose attached to the radiator cap, turned it vertical and filled it with 50/50.

Your flush kit should have an adapter that will allow you to hook the garden hose to the heater hose and force water back through the system. Do that with the engine OFF and the radiator cap OFF. Get a section of hose and then use it to hook the garden hose up to where you unattached the heater hose and repeat the flush in the other direction.

It was a painful experience without the kit today, the hole is just a pin hole to drain the fluid from. It took a while, turn the car on, let the coolant circulate, drain the fluid, wash rinse repeat.

Refill the system. leave that hose loose until water comes out there when filling the radiator if possible THEN clamp it down to make sure the air is out of it. That may not be possible but if you fill the radiator, seal the radiator, then run it with the heater always set to hot/defrost it will purge the air eventually.

Hopefully trying this will fix it, if not I will try bypassing the heater core next, if I can find the lines.

System makes you type something outside of the quoted text, different. Well my wife must be lucky, I should have went to bed hours ago, I am not so sure I should have got out of bed today!

 

[herohog]

Pull the lower hose to drain that sucker. WAY faster and more likely to let deposits of rust etc. out.

 

[herohog]

The water gushing out is usually a sign of air pockets. If you can easily remove and reinstall the t-stat, leave it OUT for these tests and the flushing. Do NOT operate the car without one for driving! The thermostat needs to be in there to allow the water to stay in the radiator long enough to lose the heat it has gained to work properly. Also, it can make warming the engine up take too long and cold starts are hell on an engine.

 

[herohog]

Bubbles, on a system that is full, indicates a head gasket leak.

To be sure the system is full, fill the radiator. Start the engine and run it for a 10 - 20 seconds and then kill it and top off the tank. Do that 4 times or so until it quits taking water. Once it quits taking water, cap the radiator and fill the surge tank to the cold full mark. Cap the tank as you would when normally using the car. Run it and watch the temp and the tank. if the tank level stays OK, once operating temp is reached, kill the engine and let it cool. It should suck any water it needs from the tank and any remaining air in the system should have bubbled up to the tank. Once it is cool, squeeze the upper radiator hose. If it isn't tight with pressure, open the tank cap and top it off to the full mark. This SHOULD have the system full and ready to go.

Once it has been flushed and filled like this, you should NOT get bubbles coming into the tank or at least damned few as the last few pockets of air work their way out. If the water level drops in the tank and you have to keep putting water in, you have a leak somewhere. The Temp should stabilize and the heater/defroster should function. If not, we go back to testing looking for bubbles, milky oil, white smoke etc..

 

[electronicwiz]

Sounds just like a car my grandpa had. Same symptoms you are having. We tried everything listed in all the previous post, with none of of them correcting the overheating.
It ended up being the electric radiator cooling fan. It was cycling like normal, but it wasn't spinning fast enough, although it appeared by eye to be spinning fast. We put a new one in and it solved the problem.

 

[shoalsfugro]

Sounds just like a car my grandpa had. Same symptoms you are having. We tried everything listed in all the previous post, with none of of them correcting the overheating.
It ended up being the electric radiator cooling fan. It was cycling like normal, but it wasn't spinning fast enough, although it appeared by eye to be spinning fast. We put a new one in and it solved the problem.

I had that happen, easy test, crank the car up use a garden hose with a sprayer on the outside of radiator, if it keeps the car from overheating the fan may be the problem. ls the radiator blocked by bugs? There is also a module that increases the fan speed with temp and A/C being turned on that could be weak. Also did you check the thermostat vent when you reinstalled?

 

[kcinnick]

Vent is right, there is a little mark in the housing to line it up with. Thermostat works, it opens at tempand closes when cold.

I am in the all star service area now, hopefully my truck comes out ok.
Oil was not milky, as in choclate milk looking.

So the only two possibilities of bubbles in the overflow tank are blown gasket and air bubble?

 

[XD-GEM]

Have you checked the calve that sends the water throught your heater core? Gunk builds up on them and then the flow is reduced throguh the system, sometimes it jams the valve so that you get no heat.

 

[bs875]

If you can easily remove and reinstall the t-stat, leave it OUT for these tests and the flushing. Do NOT operate the car without one for driving!

I have to disagree with that. I know a car that's been running for years with the thermostat out. The thermostat worked (tested in hot water) so I assumed the flow was fine. But the car would overheat with it in. I took it out and now it runs normally and comes up to temperature just fine. The heater has no problems either. Maybe there would be issues in a cold environment but it's passed several LA winters without issue.

The thermostat needs to be in there to allow the water to stay in the radiator long enough to lose the heat it has gained to work properly. Also, it can make warming the engine up take too long and cold starts are hell on an engine.

The thermostat is only there to keep the water from flowing until the engine (coolant) reaches operating temperature. Once that operating temperature is reached the thermostat opens. It doesn't keep coolant in the radiator to lose heat. It can cause the engine to warm up slower, the fuel to not burn completely (emissions) and the heater to be affected. Considering it's summer and you just want to get rid of it those probably don't matter.

I don't think you'll get a 7-8k write off from a charity. In 2005 they changed the rules on vehicle donation. It used to be the fair market value of the car. Now it's what the charity is actually able to sell it for is what you can write off. The kicker is you won't know what your deduction will be until they sell it and it's too late to keep.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/selling/articles/48930/article.html

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news on that one. It's like explaining to my neighbor after Gustav that his AllState hurricane insurance wasn't the $500 deductible he thought but 5% of the home's value.

 

[jimdana1942]

That slight amount of milkiness shouldn't cause overheating even if it was a gasket leak. With the radiator cap off and engine running do you see bubbles?

Anyway, I had a toyota once that I fought an overheating problem on for a year. Changed most everything. But once I replaced the water pump it was okay after that. Just a thought.

 

[kcinnick]

I am not that worried about the charity donation thing. If I can't sell it for 2-3k I will give it away. The fair kbb value is 4k+ for private party. Somehow that turns it into 7500 for dealer retail.... I just don't want to give it away to a dealership. Either I will sell it for something close to FMV or give it to a family member/friend of the family who ends up needing it.

I do want to fix it. I might take up trying to change the water pump or the head gasket next weekend. Either will be a cheap fix, around $100 and my time, I just want to make sure I get the right thing. I wish there was a positive, this is broke, replace this, your GTG.

I will probably change the tranny fluid, filter and transmission mount so whoever gets it will be in good shape as far as regular maintenance/what goes out.

No bubbles with then radiator cap off and engine running, just flow with a spurt or splash every now and then.

 

[herohog]

I have to disagree with that. I know a car that's been running for years with the thermostat out. The thermostat worked (tested in hot water) so I assumed the flow was fine. But the car would overheat with it in. I took it out and now it runs normally and comes up to temperature just fine. The heater has no problems either. Maybe there would be issues in a cold environment but it's passed several LA winters without issue.

You have been lucky. I am correct on this. It is even more true in card made since the 90's.

The thermostat is only there to keep the water from flowing until the engine (coolant) reaches operating temperature. Once that operating temperature is reached the thermostat opens. It doesn't keep coolant in the radiator to lose heat. It can cause the engine to warm up slower, the fuel to not burn completely (emissions) and the heater to be affected. Considering it's summer and you just want to get rid of it those probably don't matter.

While you are partly correct, you are partly wrong too. In cold weather, the radiator can over-cool the liquid and the thermostat closes down to allow the engine to stay at the optimum operating temp. I have personally seen cars with no thermostat run constantly hot without it and run at the proper temp with it in proving that it is causing the water to transfer more heat by staying in the radiator longer. I have also seen cars that never get up to temp because the water is overly cooled. Which way this happen is affected by the size and efficiency of the radiator in each case.

Just for the record, I was a certified Master Mechanic and have a clue here.

 

[kcinnick]

Just for the record, I was a certified Master Mechanic and have a clue here.

I can tell you have been to this rodeo before from your advice, your help is greatly appreciated and you are a great asset to this community.

 

[herohog]

Thanks. Not trying to brag or any of that. Just trying to help. I have been out of it for some 15 years since I became disabled and became a computer geek but I still help my friends where I can. You get me on the new ignition systems and fuel injection systems and I bow out! That takes training I simply do not have anymore! :-)

Here's a picture of our old shop with a few of the cars we worked on to give you an Idea of my background. At the time I was building and tuning suspension systems for race cars, vettes and high-end sports cars for racers and shops like "Foreign & Classic" in Shreveport, LA. The shop was Quality Frame & Alignment.

I built the roll cage and set up the suspension on that bug-eye which was an S.C.C.A. National Championship car.

 

[bs875]

Originally Posted by bs875
The thermostat is only there to keep the water from flowing until the engine (coolant) reaches operating temperature. Once that operating temperature is reached the thermostat opens. It doesn't keep coolant in the radiator to lose heat. It can cause the engine to warm up slower, the fuel to not burn completely (emissions) and the heater to be affected. Considering it's summer and you just want to get rid of it those probably don't matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeroHog
While you are partly correct, you are partly wrong too. In cold weather, the radiator can over-cool the liquid and the thermostat closes down to allow the engine to stay at the optimum operating temp. I have personally seen cars with no thermostat run constantly hot without it and run at the proper temp with it in proving that it is causing the water to transfer more heat by staying in the radiator longer. I have also seen cars that never get up to temp because the water is overly cooled. Which way this happen is affected by the size and efficiency of the radiator in each case.

I agree with that. In cold weather the thermostat will close down if the coolant drops below the set thermostat temperature. I also agree that thermostat removal could cause a car to never reach operating temperature.
I only disagree with the part about the thermostat functioning to keep the water in the radiator longer to cool it off more. If the coolant is at or above the set temperature the thermostat can do nothing to restrict the flow. It's not a smart device and only opens or closes based on temperature. And by keeping coolant in the radiator longer (which would cool better) it would also be keeping coolant in the engine block longer (which causes that coolant to heat up more). So any advantage would seem to be lost overall.

If I'm wrong about those two things (thermostat's ability to restrict flow under excess heat, overall system heat under restricted flow) please explain. I don't like carrying around incorrect information and I take no pride in being right or wrong. I just want to know the correct answer. I'm really anxious to find out what the problem with the Neon is (or at least what cures it).

 

[highstandard40]

I agree with that. In cold weather the thermostat will close down if the coolant drops below the set thermostat temperature. I also agree that thermostat removal could cause a car to never reach operating temperature.
I only disagree with the part about the thermostat functioning to keep the water in the radiator longer to cool it off more. If the coolant is at or above the set temperature the thermostat can do nothing to restrict the flow. It's not a smart device and only opens or closes based on temperature. And by keeping coolant in the radiator longer (which would cool better) it would also be keeping coolant in the engine block longer (which causes that coolant to heat up more). So any advantage would seem to be lost overall.

If I'm wrong about those two things (thermostat's ability to restrict flow under excess heat, overall system heat under restricted flow) please explain. I don't like carrying around incorrect information and I take no pride in being right or wrong. I just want to know the correct answer. I'm really anxious to find out what the problem with the Neon is (or at least what cures it).

A thermostat will somewhat restrict the flow of water even if fully open. Just look at a thermostat and you will see why. It's like placing and orifice in the coolant passage. The flow rate will be higher with it removed.

 

[PAPACHUCK]

One thing I haven't seen brought up yet.

Most cars these days have an air deflector under the front bumper to channel air to the radiator. When this piece is knocked off, the vehicle can overheat when everything else is working properly. Make sure you have a small black strip of plastic going across the car below the front bumper behind an opening in the lower part of the front facia.