My police encounter while OC'ing
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Good points. For the record:
I REALLY wish we could all open carry. It would be a better world if we did. As things stand that's not a viable option. Its right up there with wishing nukes had never been invented.
I ccw, not open carry. Open carry tends to draw attention to yourself and not usually the attention you want.
Open carry is legal. Open carry will also make your attorney very fond of you... you will likely end up giving him money. "Beat the rap but not the ride"? That could be an expensive ride. If you're an activist or able to legally defend yourself or have lots of money have at it...
Open carry lets the zombies know you are carrying and gives up the element of surprise. Unlike cops, you cannot pick up your radio and call for backup. They can have 6 units show up in just a few minutes as well as a more EMT's than you'll need (theoretically, anyway). You can't. You call 911 and get put on hold. You can't call for arti or air support either.
Legal or not, cops don't want you to OC. I've had positive responses from every cop I've that I've told I had a CCW. If you do have to defend yourself do you want the cops that show up to handle the incident already not liking you?
My advice about giving out copies of the law and keeping a copy on you was only if you insist on open carry...
Good luck...
I REALLY wish we could all open carry. It would be a better world if we did. As things stand that's not a viable option. Its right up there with wishing nukes had never been invented.
I ccw, not open carry. Open carry tends to draw attention to yourself and not usually the attention you want.
Open carry is legal. Open carry will also make your attorney very fond of you... you will likely end up giving him money. "Beat the rap but not the ride"? That could be an expensive ride. If you're an activist or able to legally defend yourself or have lots of money have at it...
Open carry lets the zombies know you are carrying and gives up the element of surprise. Unlike cops, you cannot pick up your radio and call for backup. They can have 6 units show up in just a few minutes as well as a more EMT's than you'll need (theoretically, anyway). You can't. You call 911 and get put on hold. You can't call for arti or air support either.
Legal or not, cops don't want you to OC. I've had positive responses from every cop I've that I've told I had a CCW. If you do have to defend yourself do you want the cops that show up to handle the incident already not liking you?
My advice about giving out copies of the law and keeping a copy on you was only if you insist on open carry...
Good luck...
there should NEVER be a "ride" to beat in the first place. it takes way less time and effort to just work in an extra 30seconds or so inform all police that open carry is perfectly legal.
That should not even be an issue. if the police truly do not want us to open carry then there is something seriously wrong. however, i do not believe that is true. some, and by some i mean very few, LEO's dont like the idea of civilians open carrying. so why should someone have to go through time and money defending themselves when they broke no laws b/c of that 1% of LEO's? wouldnt it make more since to just spend a few min and tell those 1% of LEO's that open carrying is perfectly legal????
I'd bet its much more than 1%. I'd bet its more like 20%.
You're right, it shouldn't be an issue. Real life is not ideal. Working car insurance I've seen too many accident reports be influenced by who knows who. I've seen too many DWI's connected to accidents disappear. It shouldn't happen but it does. That's reality. You can make the effort to change that, but its not going to be pleasant.
Informing cops of what the law is? That sounds like a good way to tick them off. They have an unknown person in front of them with a gun and you want to talk legalities? Talk to the DA, son, cause you're going to jail.
And no, I'm not bashing cops, far from it. LEO unfortunately spend most of their day dealing with the dregs of humanity. I can see where it would give them a negative view of the world. If you're OC'ing and randomly interact with a cop I agree you're likely to be able to talk your way out of the situation like what happened here. What if little old lady Matilda calls 911 screaming about the guy waving the gun around (and you know she'll exaggerate just to get the cops out faster). What are those cops thinking after running redlights to get to you? Are they going to be in the mood to have a legal debate with you? They're worried about going home tonight and watching football, getting back to doing police car 69 with their buddies, reading the rest of the article on the new Remington AR-15, or getting to the next call... not having a legal debate. Its much easier to toss you in the back of the patrol car and let you talk to the DA, on Monday. Oh, btw, your weekend w/ Bubba ain't gonna be much fun... And that little old lady may push for disturbing the peace also...
So, the DA knows you're right, he lets you go. You proved your point. You won. Congrats. You got to spend a night in jail getting to know your cell mates, hopefully not intimately. You might even get your gun back eventually. And oh, btw, the DA chewing out the cops for harrasing you for OC'ing probably has them more ticked off at citizens carrying. Was it worth it?
You're right, it shouldn't be an issue. Real life is not ideal. Working car insurance I've seen too many accident reports be influenced by who knows who. I've seen too many DWI's connected to accidents disappear. It shouldn't happen but it does. That's reality. You can make the effort to change that, but its not going to be pleasant.
Informing cops of what the law is? That sounds like a good way to tick them off. They have an unknown person in front of them with a gun and you want to talk legalities? Talk to the DA, son, cause you're going to jail.
And no, I'm not bashing cops, far from it. LEO unfortunately spend most of their day dealing with the dregs of humanity. I can see where it would give them a negative view of the world. If you're OC'ing and randomly interact with a cop I agree you're likely to be able to talk your way out of the situation like what happened here. What if little old lady Matilda calls 911 screaming about the guy waving the gun around (and you know she'll exaggerate just to get the cops out faster). What are those cops thinking after running redlights to get to you? Are they going to be in the mood to have a legal debate with you? They're worried about going home tonight and watching football, getting back to doing police car 69 with their buddies, reading the rest of the article on the new Remington AR-15, or getting to the next call... not having a legal debate. Its much easier to toss you in the back of the patrol car and let you talk to the DA, on Monday. Oh, btw, your weekend w/ Bubba ain't gonna be much fun... And that little old lady may push for disturbing the peace also...
So, the DA knows you're right, he lets you go. You proved your point. You won. Congrats. You got to spend a night in jail getting to know your cell mates, hopefully not intimately. You might even get your gun back eventually. And oh, btw, the DA chewing out the cops for harrasing you for OC'ing probably has them more ticked off at citizens carrying. Was it worth it?
i didnt mean for a civilian to inform the police of the law. they dont just hand out badges to anyone, so why not inform them during their schooling?
i realize that "this is the world that we live in" but it just sucks that things like this happen when they are so easily avoidable.
i realize that "this is the world that we live in" but it just sucks that things like this happen when they are so easily avoidable.
Roadhazzard
Well-Known Member
They're worried about... getting back to doing police car 69 with their buddies....
Holy CRAP!
Print a copy of louisiana handgun law and put it in your wallet. this will save time and trouble, if an officer is shown the law and proceeds to detain or arrest you, he has violated your civil rights and is subject to imprisonment and or fine himself. Nobody is above the law, and Infringement of civil rights by any law enforcement officer carries with it up to 10yrs in prison. Just as the LEO's like to say.. "Ignorance is no excuse". That statement works both ways, not only for citizens, but also LEO's.
from http://www.lsp.org/handguns
"The average processing time is 30 days for new and renewal concealed handgun permit applications."
If this is true and not an exaggeration then my only option is to be un-armed for a minimum of 30 days; plus the wait for the next CWP class.
Or open carry while my application is pending and risk being harassed/detained/arrested
"The average processing time is 30 days for new and renewal concealed handgun permit applications."
If this is true and not an exaggeration then my only option is to be un-armed for a minimum of 30 days; plus the wait for the next CWP class.
Or open carry while my application is pending and risk being harassed/detained/arrested
Lets try this way.. The united states Law against what the original posted endured.
TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, ... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnaping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
If 2 or more officers are present when this occurs, then this law on top of the afore mentioned becomes in effect.
TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 241
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;...
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
****Summary:
Section 242 of Title 18 makes it a crime for a person acting under color of any law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States.
For the purpose of Section 242, acts under "color of law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the their lawful authority, but also acts done beyond the bounds of that official's lawful authority, if the acts are done while the official is purporting to or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. Persons acting under color of law within the meaning of this statute include police officers, prisons guards and other law enforcement officials, as well as judges, care providers in public health facilities, and others who are acting as public officials. It is not necessary that the crime be motivated by animus toward the race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status or national origin of the victim.
The offense is punishable by a range of imprisonment up to a life term, or the death penalty, depending upon the circumstances of the crime, and the resulting injury, if any.
Know your rights, Flex your rights, or eventually, you will lose your rights. Although this post should end the issue of OC, and the LEO and others stating "get a ccw" im sure it wont.
This is the Law of the United States of America, anyone infringing upon this law, is a CRIMINAL.
IN CASE ANYONE WANTS TO KNOW WHAT TO DO IN THE EVENT THIS OCCURS, HERE IS A LINK ...http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/overview.htm
TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, ... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnaping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
If 2 or more officers are present when this occurs, then this law on top of the afore mentioned becomes in effect.
TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 241
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;...
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
****Summary:
Section 242 of Title 18 makes it a crime for a person acting under color of any law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States.
For the purpose of Section 242, acts under "color of law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the their lawful authority, but also acts done beyond the bounds of that official's lawful authority, if the acts are done while the official is purporting to or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. Persons acting under color of law within the meaning of this statute include police officers, prisons guards and other law enforcement officials, as well as judges, care providers in public health facilities, and others who are acting as public officials. It is not necessary that the crime be motivated by animus toward the race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status or national origin of the victim.
The offense is punishable by a range of imprisonment up to a life term, or the death penalty, depending upon the circumstances of the crime, and the resulting injury, if any.
Know your rights, Flex your rights, or eventually, you will lose your rights. Although this post should end the issue of OC, and the LEO and others stating "get a ccw" im sure it wont.
This is the Law of the United States of America, anyone infringing upon this law, is a CRIMINAL.
IN CASE ANYONE WANTS TO KNOW WHAT TO DO IN THE EVENT THIS OCCURS, HERE IS A LINK ...http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/overview.htm
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I'll put it this way...
Any LEO that automatically thinks that someone who is Open Carrying is a criminal is a moron that needs to give up the badge, or at least one who needs to learn the law. Talking to someone is one thing, immediately treating law abiding citizens like criminals is another.
Criminals -do not- open carry...and Lawyers open carry more than anyone else that I know of. Sure, both can be scumbags but 1 does it because they know the law, the other -doesn't- do it because they don't know the law.
Some people on this forum like to be dicks to people who don't believe in giving up some rights in order to obey the law while they protect their most valuable right and the most valuable right of others, life. And because some people don't agree with their opinion they treat those people like **** over it and try to degrade everything they say due to the people having alternative opinions. They try to degrade those people every single chance they get, even though when it is all said and done those people are on the same team and would rather get along and simply agree to disagree so they can otherwise get along.
Plain and Simple...It's your right to OC if you want, be respectful...sometimes you'll come across people who don't want you to OC, be respectful. If a LEO takes your gun, beats the **** out of you with it, and pisses on you...be respectful(That is what the courts are for, you WILL lose on the street). The key is to respect the law, respect other people, respect yourself, respect the situation, and respect law enforcement. If you do that, I think more often than not you'll be OK.
I don't know if this is the law, but I heard someone say that in Louisiana concealing a firearm without a permit is a Misdemeanor. What kind of repercussions a person would face if they were caught doing so...no idea. I don't do it because I assume it would put my firearm rights at risk & I would have to become a criminal in order to carry in such a manner. I prefer following the law.
Any LEO that automatically thinks that someone who is Open Carrying is a criminal is a moron that needs to give up the badge, or at least one who needs to learn the law. Talking to someone is one thing, immediately treating law abiding citizens like criminals is another.
Criminals -do not- open carry...and Lawyers open carry more than anyone else that I know of. Sure, both can be scumbags but 1 does it because they know the law, the other -doesn't- do it because they don't know the law.
Some people on this forum like to be dicks to people who don't believe in giving up some rights in order to obey the law while they protect their most valuable right and the most valuable right of others, life. And because some people don't agree with their opinion they treat those people like **** over it and try to degrade everything they say due to the people having alternative opinions. They try to degrade those people every single chance they get, even though when it is all said and done those people are on the same team and would rather get along and simply agree to disagree so they can otherwise get along.
Plain and Simple...It's your right to OC if you want, be respectful...sometimes you'll come across people who don't want you to OC, be respectful. If a LEO takes your gun, beats the **** out of you with it, and pisses on you...be respectful(That is what the courts are for, you WILL lose on the street). The key is to respect the law, respect other people, respect yourself, respect the situation, and respect law enforcement. If you do that, I think more often than not you'll be OK.
I don't know if this is the law, but I heard someone say that in Louisiana concealing a firearm without a permit is a Misdemeanor. What kind of repercussions a person would face if they were caught doing so...no idea. I don't do it because I assume it would put my firearm rights at risk & I would have to become a criminal in order to carry in such a manner. I prefer following the law.
from http://www.lsp.org/handguns
"The average processing time is 30 days for new and renewal concealed handgun permit applications."
If this is true and not an exaggeration then my only option is to be un-armed for a minimum of 30 days; plus the wait for the next CWP class.
Or open carry while my application is pending and risk being harassed/detained/arrested
Sign up for a CCW class. Keep a copy of the law in your wallet. OC but keep a low profile until your CCW comes in.
Tim that is exactly what they're trained to do. It's survival on their behalf.
I just wish they didn't get so pissy when civilians in turn don't trust them.
God bless em. They have more virtue than me, that's for sure.
I just wish they didn't get so pissy when civilians in turn don't trust them.
God bless em. They have more virtue than me, that's for sure.
Survival for whom? Fear is no excuse to violate the law! Old saying.. Cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen! Everyone here keeps talking in Opinions, go to court with your opinion and see how far it gets you. If i OC and am questioned, i simply notify the officer of the law, if he further detains me i notify him of Title 18, if he still wishes to detain me i request his information for criminal proceedings, Smartly enough, ive only had to resort to that 1 time and it was in California. The officer was ordered to issue a formal appology. Placerville Ca. 2006. The story?
I was working for the National Forest, Handling Vandalism of National Forest property by both man and beast. i had my 10mm handgun in my vehicle, clip removed as per CA law. I was stopped by local LOE about a report i had filed on a cops friend, the cop then asked if i had any weapons , i stated yes and notified him of where it was, he then asked if he could see it, I showed him, and he grabbed it from me and took it to his car. Upon returning he issued me a citation for carrying a Loaded weapon, as he stated having the clip in the car made it a loaded weapon,and took my handgun. I went to court with the law, i informed the judge that only during the act of a felony is a loaded clip in the vehicle considered a loaded gun. I showed him a copy of the law, the judge actually got irate with the prosecutor, ordering an appology and the return of my weapon immediately. The judge then informed me of my right to prosecute under title 18. I declined having felt very good about the way it was handled by the judge.
Incidently, once the prosecutor was notified the weapon was not considered a loaded weapon, he then asked the judge to consider it Concealed, the judge looked to me thats when i showed him another CA law, any weapon cannot be considered concealed if you are on your way to or from any shooting celebration be it hunting or range, as i was hired to hunt by the National Forest, the judge said "hes right" now give him his Damn gun back, case dismissed!
This was in California, the toughest state by far for handgun control, but because i knew the law, I upheld the law, the answer to anyones question on OC is simple, know the law and force others to respect and obey the law, whatever the cost. or dont own a gun. A LEO demanding that you get a CCW is Intimidating you, thats against the law, he can suggest it, but cannot force it.
"A man only has those rights that he can Defend"
I was working for the National Forest, Handling Vandalism of National Forest property by both man and beast. i had my 10mm handgun in my vehicle, clip removed as per CA law. I was stopped by local LOE about a report i had filed on a cops friend, the cop then asked if i had any weapons , i stated yes and notified him of where it was, he then asked if he could see it, I showed him, and he grabbed it from me and took it to his car. Upon returning he issued me a citation for carrying a Loaded weapon, as he stated having the clip in the car made it a loaded weapon,and took my handgun. I went to court with the law, i informed the judge that only during the act of a felony is a loaded clip in the vehicle considered a loaded gun. I showed him a copy of the law, the judge actually got irate with the prosecutor, ordering an appology and the return of my weapon immediately. The judge then informed me of my right to prosecute under title 18. I declined having felt very good about the way it was handled by the judge.
Incidently, once the prosecutor was notified the weapon was not considered a loaded weapon, he then asked the judge to consider it Concealed, the judge looked to me thats when i showed him another CA law, any weapon cannot be considered concealed if you are on your way to or from any shooting celebration be it hunting or range, as i was hired to hunt by the National Forest, the judge said "hes right" now give him his Damn gun back, case dismissed!
This was in California, the toughest state by far for handgun control, but because i knew the law, I upheld the law, the answer to anyones question on OC is simple, know the law and force others to respect and obey the law, whatever the cost. or dont own a gun. A LEO demanding that you get a CCW is Intimidating you, thats against the law, he can suggest it, but cannot force it.
"A man only has those rights that he can Defend"
LSP, how many times have you open carried while not in uniform? I OC a lot...and the most common question the general public asks me if if I am in Law Enforcement, Military, Security, or if I have a permit. I tell them no & inform them of the laws & their rights. While you were OCing in plain clothes...you were never asked that question? Soccer moms just ran in fear? Criminals came up to you and caused trouble?Oh, boy.....
Dawg, you were right...
Instead of me finding info...why don't -you- find me a case where a person who was Open Carrying had a criminal come up to them, randomly, and commit a crime around them because they saw them OCing. That is my challenge to you. Surely you have proof to refute my personal experiences OCing and secondary knowledge of that crime deterrence!
To even make it easier...find me a case where a person committed a criminal act in the presence of a person OCing, period! You may have seen it, heard of it...but I sure haven't. And they haven't done it in my presence.
If you had really read my numerous replies I clearly said that he made a mistake, and he should be familiar and comfortable with his weapon before he carries it. If you aren't comfortable with a weapon you are wielding, do what it takes to get comfortable or put it up.
If a criminal is not intimidated by someone who is OCing...then how do you think they would feel about someone who wasn't carrying at all? I bet they would be even more aggressive, what do you think?
He made several mistakes, I and many others told him this. I think he realizes how bad a mistake it really was in principle, and that he will indeed correct that in the future.
Yes, I sincerely thank netw0rk for carrying...and anyone else who burdens that responsibility and is 'a good guy/girl'. Though I do hope they are all familiar with their weapons and are committed to their actions.
I don't dislike you at all, LSP, and you don't make me mad...you just make me want to give you a hug.
Looking forward to your documented refutation.
Not disregarding any future reply that he may have on this issue. But wouldn't that lack of unidentified OCing experience show that he would have more ignorance/less evidence as to what questions citizens ask someone who is OCing and how those citizens perceive OCers?
That is why I asked it in the manner that I did. I'm asking if he has plain clothes OC experience or if he is just guessing that people interpret OCers as something other than what I stated.
LSP972,
Well you asked, and you didnt ask me but ive got some information that you cannot dispute..
Guns scare people, Police use scare tactics, scaring people works for the police, so why wouldnt it work for others? Scare tactics are part of LEO training, they teach police to scare people to give information and scare people into allowing violation of civil rights. You want a letter from a criminal stating that he didnt rob one guy cuz he had a gun and went on to rob another because he didnt? I think its rational to assume that is a given, criminals always go for the weakest prey. Its a basic animal instinct. If OC even prevents one attack, then its worth it dont you agree? I would bet that if someone OCing saved your loved one from a rape or murder, youd be singing a different tune, well just hope that when the time comes, someone didnt listen to you here and went ahead and OCed and when your wife has 3 criminals tag teaming her in an alley hes there to protect her. Or you can wait for the cops to get there.. by then she will have been turned out like a pron star and feel like she just passed a football.
DC outlawed Open Carry , their crime rate rose 250%. Miami repealed their No-Guns law , their crime rate dropped 77%. these are facts, so the argument of OC Saves lives, is accurate.
But we keep ignoring the big picture..
OC IS LEGAL!!
Your opinion on the subject doesnt really matter!!
You are talking opinion, we are talking law, and against civil rights your opinions are meaningless. Enough people stop OCing , then the Activist and law makers will assume they dont have anyone in need or use of that law and we will lose another law. Sooner or later with that kind of thinking, the Government will be instructing you on how and when to have sex with your wife.
A concealed weapon is far more dangerous to LEO and the public, Everyones had a bad day, fliped a guy off, called him an *******, etc. We wouldnt do it if we knew the guy had a gun. If i were a LEO i would much rather the gun be in plain sight, than hidden, and as we all know, the local convicts arent OCing, they hide it in their waistband. so OC banning is the same as gun banning, it simply means Criminals will be safer when victimizing citizens. Until the police can stop 100% of the crime, stop telling people they cannot protect themselves, in whatever way THEY feel necissary. Do i enjoy having to carry a handgun when i take my kids to Wal-Mart? Hell no! but until the police can guarantee mine and my familys safety what choice do i have? Risk of losing a child or loved ones life isnt a choice.
OPEN CARRY YOUR GUN, IF YOU CANT USE IT PROPERLY, ILL USE IT FOR YOU. WHEN MINES IS EMPTY.
Well you asked, and you didnt ask me but ive got some information that you cannot dispute..
Guns scare people, Police use scare tactics, scaring people works for the police, so why wouldnt it work for others? Scare tactics are part of LEO training, they teach police to scare people to give information and scare people into allowing violation of civil rights. You want a letter from a criminal stating that he didnt rob one guy cuz he had a gun and went on to rob another because he didnt? I think its rational to assume that is a given, criminals always go for the weakest prey. Its a basic animal instinct. If OC even prevents one attack, then its worth it dont you agree? I would bet that if someone OCing saved your loved one from a rape or murder, youd be singing a different tune, well just hope that when the time comes, someone didnt listen to you here and went ahead and OCed and when your wife has 3 criminals tag teaming her in an alley hes there to protect her. Or you can wait for the cops to get there.. by then she will have been turned out like a pron star and feel like she just passed a football.
DC outlawed Open Carry , their crime rate rose 250%. Miami repealed their No-Guns law , their crime rate dropped 77%. these are facts, so the argument of OC Saves lives, is accurate.
But we keep ignoring the big picture..
OC IS LEGAL!!
Your opinion on the subject doesnt really matter!!
You are talking opinion, we are talking law, and against civil rights your opinions are meaningless. Enough people stop OCing , then the Activist and law makers will assume they dont have anyone in need or use of that law and we will lose another law. Sooner or later with that kind of thinking, the Government will be instructing you on how and when to have sex with your wife.
A concealed weapon is far more dangerous to LEO and the public, Everyones had a bad day, fliped a guy off, called him an *******, etc. We wouldnt do it if we knew the guy had a gun. If i were a LEO i would much rather the gun be in plain sight, than hidden, and as we all know, the local convicts arent OCing, they hide it in their waistband. so OC banning is the same as gun banning, it simply means Criminals will be safer when victimizing citizens. Until the police can stop 100% of the crime, stop telling people they cannot protect themselves, in whatever way THEY feel necissary. Do i enjoy having to carry a handgun when i take my kids to Wal-Mart? Hell no! but until the police can guarantee mine and my familys safety what choice do i have? Risk of losing a child or loved ones life isnt a choice.
OPEN CARRY YOUR GUN, IF YOU CANT USE IT PROPERLY, ILL USE IT FOR YOU. WHEN MINES IS EMPTY.
Dawg's post ftw.
The board is coming to the point where we need to post resumes to make comments, GFR.
A prerequisite to "tactical training" "carrying smart" "defending ones self" is not going to the range with your buddies and putting a few hundred rounds on some paper.
Ask you self and take note. How many of you sub consciously keep your weapon side away from people you talk to. How many of you make another jesture in greeting instead of giving someone your gun hand? How many of you "tacticool open carry activists" use Google instead of real life experiences to come up with some of your answers. I swear the BS on the BS board is getting deep.
Slow where you at? Only 2 posts in this thread. Come on man, I though you had more spunk in you. Its subliminally a cop vs. joe thread, the OC discussion is just a cover up.
The board is coming to the point where we need to post resumes to make comments, GFR.
A prerequisite to "tactical training" "carrying smart" "defending ones self" is not going to the range with your buddies and putting a few hundred rounds on some paper.
Ask you self and take note. How many of you sub consciously keep your weapon side away from people you talk to. How many of you make another jesture in greeting instead of giving someone your gun hand? How many of you "tacticool open carry activists" use Google instead of real life experiences to come up with some of your answers. I swear the BS on the BS board is getting deep.
Slow where you at? Only 2 posts in this thread. Come on man, I though you had more spunk in you. Its subliminally a cop vs. joe thread, the OC discussion is just a cover up.
LSP, how many times have you open carried while not in uniform? I OC a lot...and the most common question the general public asks me if if I am in Law Enforcement, Military, Security, or if I have a permit. I tell them no & inform them of the laws & their rights. While you were OCing in plain clothes...you were never asked that question? Soccer moms just ran in fear? Criminals came up to you and caused trouble?
Instead of me finding info...why don't -you- find me a case where a person who was Open Carrying had a criminal come up to them, randomly, and commit a crime around them because they saw them OCing. That is my challenge to you. Surely you have proof to refute my personal experiences OCing and secondary knowledge of that crime deterrence!
To even make it easier...find me a case where a person committed a criminal act in the presence of a person OCing, period! You may have seen it, heard of it...but I sure haven't. And they haven't done it in my presence.
If you had really read my numerous replies I clearly said that he made a mistake, and he should be familiar and comfortable with his weapon before he carries it. If you aren't comfortable with a weapon you are wielding, do what it takes to get comfortable or put it up.
If a criminal is not intimidated by someone who is OCing...then how do you think they would feel about someone who wasn't carrying at all? I bet they would be even more aggressive, what do you think?
He made several mistakes, I and many others told him this. I think he realizes how bad a mistake it really was in principle, and that he will indeed correct that in the future.
Yes, I sincerely thank netw0rk for carrying...and anyone else who burdens that responsibility and is 'a good guy/girl'. Though I do hope they are all familiar with their weapons and are committed to their actions.
I don't dislike you at all, LSP, and you don't make me mad...you just make me want to give you a hug.
Looking forward to your documented refutation.
Silly Rabbit ! That will never happen until he check's with someone else first so that he can drop the name so you know he did.
Too friggin funny
EDIT; I heard once that you can argue about someone's opinion, but never their experience.
LongRange, Well done.
Well gee if we are allowed to post a resume..
I was Recruited out of High School by the Federal Gov. By the time i was 19 i was in Somalia, by 22 i was in Bosnia, as well as 2 other countries. My job was TS, thats Tactical Surgical. In my 6yrs in the field i have carried a weapon in 11 countries,most of which i wasnt even supposed to be in, and yes i have had more than my share of altercations. I was shot 4 times, during career. I have watched as countless men, on both sides, young men, shot or blown apart, to defend a constitution in another country. Many of these young men had 8-12 weeks of training and prior to that had no real weapons experience, much like most LEO's in the United States. Until you have been shot at and returned fire, until you have bled to save another and not for your own self preservation, coming in here and spouting opinions is rediculous, and bragging about your training is laughable.
I was in bosnia when the Government Failed, and watch as the citizens who were not prepared suffered horrible deaths. When you find a 12 yr old Girl who has been raped repeatedly to the point where her vagina has been torn to her anus and theres nothing you can do, then come here and ask people to give up the rights , the only right that may protect them from that 12yr old girl being their daughter makes you an ass to say the least.
In 1984 Sarajevo held the winter Olympics, in 1994 i came upon that 12yr old girl in Sarajevo. 10yrs from Gold Medal to Wooden coffins. Bosnia had McDonalds, and Shopping centers, it wasnt a 3rd world country , it was a thriving nation much like the United States, and in 7 days, it all changed. This was a Race war, and the only armed citizens were the Serbs, the minorities, they counted for 80% of the military, a military that a Serb took control of and turned it on the people. Think it cant happen here? Think again.
Dont come in here with a resume, many of us here have resumes, we have scars, and memories, and we dont brag about it, because our resumes contain the deaths of families. Our resumes contain the blood of friends, our resumes contain the list of the lives we took with our weapons so you could post in a forum in a free nation and talk against the very laws you are paid to defend.
The United States sends troops half way around the world in the name of Democracy and Rights, and how we we honor those young men and women who are fighting and dying every day? we sit here and try to strip the laws out from under them while they arent looking because they are too busy fighting and dying in another country, we sit in a forum and talk about ignoring the rights of the citizens of America, while they are elsewhere, what will they have left to come home to, if by the time they do come home, the laws and rights they had before they left , the rights theyu believed they were fighting for,are all but gone?
My resume is signed in blood, Mine and my enemies, who signed yours? The Police commish?
I was Recruited out of High School by the Federal Gov. By the time i was 19 i was in Somalia, by 22 i was in Bosnia, as well as 2 other countries. My job was TS, thats Tactical Surgical. In my 6yrs in the field i have carried a weapon in 11 countries,most of which i wasnt even supposed to be in, and yes i have had more than my share of altercations. I was shot 4 times, during career. I have watched as countless men, on both sides, young men, shot or blown apart, to defend a constitution in another country. Many of these young men had 8-12 weeks of training and prior to that had no real weapons experience, much like most LEO's in the United States. Until you have been shot at and returned fire, until you have bled to save another and not for your own self preservation, coming in here and spouting opinions is rediculous, and bragging about your training is laughable.
I was in bosnia when the Government Failed, and watch as the citizens who were not prepared suffered horrible deaths. When you find a 12 yr old Girl who has been raped repeatedly to the point where her vagina has been torn to her anus and theres nothing you can do, then come here and ask people to give up the rights , the only right that may protect them from that 12yr old girl being their daughter makes you an ass to say the least.
In 1984 Sarajevo held the winter Olympics, in 1994 i came upon that 12yr old girl in Sarajevo. 10yrs from Gold Medal to Wooden coffins. Bosnia had McDonalds, and Shopping centers, it wasnt a 3rd world country , it was a thriving nation much like the United States, and in 7 days, it all changed. This was a Race war, and the only armed citizens were the Serbs, the minorities, they counted for 80% of the military, a military that a Serb took control of and turned it on the people. Think it cant happen here? Think again.
Dont come in here with a resume, many of us here have resumes, we have scars, and memories, and we dont brag about it, because our resumes contain the deaths of families. Our resumes contain the blood of friends, our resumes contain the list of the lives we took with our weapons so you could post in a forum in a free nation and talk against the very laws you are paid to defend.
The United States sends troops half way around the world in the name of Democracy and Rights, and how we we honor those young men and women who are fighting and dying every day? we sit here and try to strip the laws out from under them while they arent looking because they are too busy fighting and dying in another country, we sit in a forum and talk about ignoring the rights of the citizens of America, while they are elsewhere, what will they have left to come home to, if by the time they do come home, the laws and rights they had before they left , the rights theyu believed they were fighting for,are all but gone?
My resume is signed in blood, Mine and my enemies, who signed yours? The Police commish?
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