45. Caliber, 270 grain Keith Style Bullet @ 950-1000fps...Good Woods Protection??

[Southern Shooter]

For woods/mountain protection within 25 yards, what would a .45 caliber, 270 grain Keith style bullet moving at 950-1,000fps be capable of dispatching?? This would be used in the lower 48 states.

Thanks

 

[Alpo]

Anything walking on two or four legs, or that flies or crawls.

 

[Gus McCrae]

That's around 540 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle (@ 950 fps). That's not far from .45 ACP territory. It's not in .357 Magnum Territory .44 Magnum will be a little over double that.

There was a news story about a guy in Alaska (I think it was Alaska), who was attacked by a bear. The guy killed it using .45 ACP...... it took 9 rounds I think.

In most places it would probably suffice, but I'd want something more if I might run into cougars, bears, mountain lions etc.....

 

[dzelenka]

That's around 540 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle (@ 950 fps). That's not far from .45 ACP territory. It's not in .357 Magnum Territory .44 Magnum will be a little over double that.

There was a news story about a guy in Alaska (I think it was Alaska), who was attacked by a bear. The guy killed it using .45 ACP...... it took 9 rounds I think.

In most places it would probably suffice, but I'd want something more if I might run into cougars, bears, mountain lions etc.....

Energy figures are deceiving. The .45 Colt with a 270 gr Kieth style bullet would be a much better "stopper" than either a .45 ACP or .357 Mag. It may even be better then the .44 Mag if the .44 shooter does not choose his bullets well. A lot of a pistol's killing power lies in penetration and energy transfer. A hard cast bullet with a large meplat (flat point) going moderately fast will penetrate deeply and transfer lots of energy. They kill very well. They also break bones. I have seen big hogs shot with the 250 gr Kieth out of a .45 Colt. It flat works. You have eliminated the great bears, so you are only really talking about black bears, mountain lions, feral dogs, hogs and people. Of those, the bear and hogs are the most heavily built and what you are suggesting certainly has the power to do the job on them. You may also look at the LBT style bullets, especially the ones by Beartooth bullets. I think they have a better shape than the Kieth bullets for penetration and killing power.

 

[Gus McCrae]

Energy figures are deceiving. The .45 Colt with a 270 gr Kieth style bullet would be a much better "stopper" than either a .45 ACP or .357 Mag. It may even be better then the .44 Mag if the .44 shooter does not choose his bullets well. A lot of a pistol's killing power lies in penetration and energy transfer. A hard cast bullet with a large meplat (flat point) going moderately fast will penetrate deeply and transfer lots of energy. They kill very well. They also break bones. I have seen big hogs shot with the 250 gr Kieth out of a .45 Colt. It flat works. You have eliminated the great bears, so you are only really talking about black bears, mountain lions, feral dogs, hogs and people. Of those, the bear and hogs are the most heavily built and what you are suggesting certainly has the power to do the job on them. You may also look at the LBT style bullets, especially the ones by Beartooth bullets. I think they have a better shape than the Kieth bullets for penetration and killing power.

Thanks for the correction. I was really thinking all other things being equal an not counting any animal out. Would the .45 Colt still be better than .357 Mag if both were using the same type of bullet?

 

[highstandard40]

I agree with Dan. Bullets with a large meplat kill much better than the energy charts would suggest. Attached is a link to another forum's post about big game kills with just such loads. Elk & deer.

http://specialtypistols.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3646077864/m/727106583?r=380103693#380103693

 

[dzelenka]

Thanks for the correction. I was really thinking all other things being equal an not counting any animal out. Would the .45 Colt still be better than .357 Mag if both were using the same type of bullet?

Absolutely. pistols are pipsqueaks when compared to rifles. A different wound dynamic is present. Bullet weight, read that as sectional density, diameter and shape become very important. Remember, a .357 needs to expand to 125% of its original diameter just to equal a .45 Colt. R

I REALLY like the LBT LFN style bullets out of revolvers. One of my favorite is the 340gr from a .454 Casull at 1500+ fps. that is one BMF. I have shot a bunch of deer with pistols. Do not underestimate cast bullets.

 

[dzelenka]

Here is a good read on handgun bullets - http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm

 

[dzelenka]

By the way, a .45 Kieth style bullet at 1000 fps has a predicted wound channel of .875" for the length of the would. When you consider the depth of penetration and the fact that low velocity bullets minimize the hydrostatic shock exhibited by rifle bullets, you really get a comparatively large permanent cavity volume. Plus, those big bullets break bones. I shot a good sized buck that was facing me with its head down. The bullet went down the spine a bit and penetrated through it. The bullet also chopped the femur in two on its way out of the ham. It was pretty impressive. Penetration kills.

 

[Southern Shooter]

Ruger Alaskan .454 Casull

I am using a Ruger Alaskan .454 Casull. I got the idea of using this bullet from Jeff Quinn's article in Gunblast http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SRHAlaskan454.htm

He mentioned using the 45-270-SAA from Mt. Baldy with 10 grains of Trail Boss and getting velocity of around 1,000 fps. And, that he was impressed with the uniform velocities using this combination.

I want to use the RCBS mold and cast my own from wheel weights and see what load I can come up with that works.

For serious backcountry/bear issues I would most likely pick up some Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc. Unless, I can find a mold in the 350 grain range and use some recipes I have seen reaching the 1,100-1,200 fps mark from the Alaskan.

I have considered the LBT and anything in the 340-360 grain bullet. But, I have not found a mold, yet. Does anybody know where I can run across one?

Also, I had wanted to stay with a plain base bullet if I was going to keep them around 1,000fps or less. Guess I was hoping to avoid gas checks.

Thank you folks for your input. Please keep it coming.

Thanks

 

[dzelenka]

This one looks nice for a .45 Colt or .454. LBT 300 gr LFN (long flat nose)

This is the 340 that I have used very successfully in my .454.

 

[dzelenka]

I am not sure how fun that Alaskan would be to shoot with full power loads.

 

[Southern Shooter]

Fun? Well.....

I am not sure about the fun factor, either. I bought it as a special purpose gun. My daughter wants to spend some time in the northern Montana and Idaho area fishing and camping. And, I wanted to have something on my hip that would give us a chance in the event we ran into something large.

However, I have decided to try and make as much use of the revolver as possible. I have put 250 grain bullets and about 950fps. They are not bad at all. I think that is due to the design of the grip frame and the Hogue grip on it. But, I know that is mere peanuts compared to what can be fired in the beast. I am going to take me time working up to some heavy loads.

 

[highstandard40]

Check these molds. They show a 340 and a 360 plain base mold.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=3

 

[Southern Shooter]

Thanks...

Thank you Highstandard40. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Question for all:

Would a plain base bullet of the 340-360 grain weight at the mentioned velocities be a good idea?

Or, at that point, would it actually be better to go gas check and faster?

When does the issue of deminishing returns start to take effect?

 

[highstandard40]

The biggest factor in good cast bullet performance is a correctly sized bullet for your particular gun. Don't believe all that crap you hear about just needing a harder alloy if you start to experience leading. Have you slugged your gun?
An ideal situation would be to have cylinder throats that are .001" to .002" larger than barrel groove diameter. You would then size your bullets to throat size. Now, if everything fits as described, a plain base bullet at your targeted velocity should perform great and give no leading. If your cylinder throats are the same or smaller than groove diameter, you'll likely get leading and poor performance with any alloy at any velocity, even with gaschecks.

A plain base can work just fine, that's what Elmer Keith used. But everything has to fit just right.

 

[dzelenka]

I carried a 4 3/4" Freedom Arms .454 when I was hiking in the Glacier area several years ago. The full house 340 gr loads were less than pleasant in that thing.

 

[hunter5567]

Push that 340gr bullet at 950-1000fps and it would probably shoot through a grizzle bear.

 

[RMc]

That's around 540 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle (@ 950 fps). That's not far from .45 ACP territory. It's not in .357 Magnum Territory .44 Magnum will be a little over double that.

There was a news story about a guy in Alaska (I think it was Alaska), who was attacked by a bear. The guy killed it using .45 ACP...... it took 9 rounds I think.

In most places it would probably suffice, but I'd want something more if I might run into cougars, bears, mountain lions etc.....

The Foot-Pounds of Energy formula was designed to compare the work of vertical steam engines to that of horses. At the dawn of the 20th century ammunition marketing types began to use FPE to convince the buying public of the greater power of the new small bore high velocity rounds. Firearms power was previously shown by penetration in 1" pine boards.