Can A Non-FFL Individual Legally Sell A Handgun To Someone Under 21?

[Speedlace]

So what are you arguing about?
Purchasing and/or possessing?

 

[derf]

So what are you arguing about?
Purchasing and/or possessing?

Purchase.

 

[Speedlace]

Doesn't matter...
...
...both legal.

 

[mrmccoy]

sound like you don't want to sell it to the guy that is under 21 so don't! If you think that it isn't right don't do it ................where is that little guy beating the dead horse??

 

[CZowner07]

If I posted something for sale anpd someone met me with cash and their age never came up, then I wouldn't have a problem.
But, in the case of the two guys and the CZ-82s, they posted something basically stating that they were under 21. So, if I, knowing that they can't legally get one from a dealer, buy the 82s and then turn around and sell them to those two nice BS guys, then it sure looks like I subverted the laws and made a straw purchase. If they had not let it be known that they were under 21, then maybe I could sell to them without any worries. But, the group buy didn't happen. And now I've decided to sell one or two of my 82s, and probably a few other handguns but I'm still reluctant to sell to guys who I know are under 21. That "reasonable cause to believe" is too open to interpretation.

I see where you are comiing from, but you didn't buy the guns with the intention of selling them( except to the people who were in the group buy), so if you do sell them to someone under 21 i wouldn't consider it a straw purchase. Now if tou were buying because someone was under 21, then the day you bought it, you sold it to them then that would be a straw purchase. but if you don't want to sell it to someone under 21 thats your choice and I would respect your decision. If someoone really wanted it they could always get their paarent to buy it for them like i did with my CZ.

 

[spanky]

afaik the state only restricts possession of firearms and doesn't specify handgun or long gun. (18 and up). the only law i've ever seen as far as sale is in regards to inter/intrastate

the feds only restrict sale/transfer through licensed dealers

If someone can show me otherwise that the state of Louisiana restricts sales of firearms to and from private citizens by age then I will agree it's illegal.

Possession of a handgun by a juvenile

Inter&Intrastate Transfer

 

[derf]

afaik the state only restricts possession of firearms and doesn't specify handgun or long gun. (18 and up). the only law i've ever seen as far as sale is in regards to inter/intrastate

the feds only restrict sale/transfer through licensed dealers

If someone can show me otherwise that the state of Louisiana restricts sales of firearms to and from private citizens by age then I will agree it's illegal.

Possession of a handgun by a juvenile

Inter&Intrastate Transfer

Yes but the wording is ambiguous. If you know that a dealer can't legally sell a handgun to a person under 21, then does that give you "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law"?

 

[spanky]

Yes but the wording is ambiguous. If you know that a dealer can't legally sell a handgun to a person under 21, then does that give you "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law"?

Federal law only regulates purchases, sales & transfers of federally licensed dealers and not of private individuals.

Louisiana law, no where that I have found, regulates sales at all except for interstate sale of long guns.

There is no ambiguity about it. It's not there. Period. That means it's legal. Same as....gasp...Open Carry.

 

[derf]

Federal law only regulates purchases, sales & transfers of federally licensed dealers and not of private individuals.

Louisiana law, no where that I have found, regulates sales at all except for interstate sale of long guns.

There is no ambiguity about it. It's not there. Period. That means it's legal. Same as....gasp...Open Carry.

Yes, but suppose you know someone is a felon and you sell to them. Why is it illegal for a non-dealer to sell to a felon? Is that in LA law, or is it derived from Federal law?

 

[spanky]

Yes, but suppose you know someone is a felon and you sell to them. Why is it illegal for a non-dealer to sell to a felon? Is that in LA law, or is it derived from Federal law?

State law says that you can't sell, transfer, loan, etc etc to a felon.

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=285164

Also, it has always been my interpretation of the law that you can't legally sell to someone that you know can't possess a firearm.

 

[spanky]

My point was that someone under 21 can possess a handgun if their parent gives it to them.

There is a difference between possession and purchase.

The possession law is for under 17. There are no legality issues with 17 or over in this state that I know of.

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78747

 

[derf]

Federal law only regulates purchases, sales & transfers of federally licensed dealers and not of private individuals.

Louisiana law, no where that I have found, regulates sales at all except for interstate sale of long guns.

There is no ambiguity about it. It's not there. Period. That means it's legal. Same as....gasp...Open Carry.

Federal law doesn't only regulate dealers. The way it is worded "for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person" means that dealers can, others can't.
But, nothing is clearly stated about non-dealers and persons under 21.

State law says that you can't sell, transfer, loan, etc etc to a felon.

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=285164

Also, it has always been my interpretation of the law that you can't legally sell to someone that you know can't possess a firearm.

OK, I'm with you there.

 

[JadeRaven]

Man, you're nuts.

In Louisiana:
Purchase - 18
FFL Purchase - 18 long gun, 21 handgun
Possession - 17+, under 17 with written copy of parents permission or hunting etc.

That's it. The 21+ FFL requirement for handgun purchases is a federal rule for licensed dealers. No more, no less.



If don't want to sell to someone under 21 then that's your choice. Talk yourself into it if you want, but it's perfectly legal if you're not a dealer.

 

[derf]

OK.
It is illegal for a dealer to sell a handgun to a person under 21.
But, that is not "reasonable cause to believe" that person under 21 cannot legally receive or possess a handgun under Federal law?

Your argument is that you know it is illegal for a dealer to do it, but because there is no specific law stating a non-dealer can't do it, it is legal.

My argument is that if a dealer cannot legally do it, then I have reasonable cause to believe that it is illegal.

Just for the record, I don't agree with it. I think if you're old enough to carry a rifle for your country, then you're old enough to drink and own guns.

 

[JadeRaven]

Is there a law on the books stating that it is legal for you to can eat bacon double cheeseburgers? I don't think there is. . . . but I assume it is legal.

The laws concerning normal folks (non FFL dealers) say nothing of age regarding sales other than 18.

On some streets it says "no truck route." There is no sign that says "but cars are okay."

 

[spanky]

I agree with JadeRaven.

I know it makes no matter to you but we are both obviously over 21 so we have no dog in this fight and no reason to swing our opinions one way or the other.

 

[derf]

Is there a law on the books stating that it is legal for you to can eat bacon double cheeseburgers? I don't think there is. . . . but I assume it is legal.

The laws concerning normal folks (non FFL dealers) say nothing of age regarding sales other than 18.

On some streets it says "no truck route." There is no sign that says "but cars are okay."

If a dealer cannot legally do it, and I know that a dealer cannot legally do it, then a judge might think that I have "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."
And the part in quotes is what drives my opinion.
To an anti-gun judge and/or jury it looks like this:
The potential buyer is prohibited by Federal law from buying from a dealer. Knowing that law should give the seller "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited".

I agree with JadeRaven.

I know it makes no matter to you but we are both obviously over 21 so we have no dog in this fight and no reason to swing our opinions one way or the other.

This came up because some of the under 21 crowd expressed interest in buying CZ-82s.

 

[spanky]

If a dealer cannot legally do it, and I know that a dealer cannot legally do it, then a judge might think that I have "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."
And the part in quotes is what drives my opinion.
To an anti-gun judge and/or jury it looks like this:
The potential buyer is prohibited by Federal law from buying from a dealer. Knowing that law should give the seller "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited".





This came up because some of the under 21 crowd expressed interest in buying CZ-82s.

There is no federal law preventing transfer by private citizens, period.

Just because you think it's illegal doesn't make it illegal.

The way you're wording your belief is such that if it's legal but you think it's not legal and it can be proven (?) that you think it's not legal then you can be prosecuted for something that's legal since you thought it wasn't. Am I following you correctly?

 

[JadeRaven]

The way you're wording your belief is such that if it's legal but you think it's not legal and it can be proven (?) that you think it's not legal then you can be prosecuted for something that's legal since you thought it wasn't. Am I following you correctly?

I think you're following his thoughts correctly. . . and it's obvious he's thinking too much

 

[derf]

There is no federal law preventing transfer by private citizens, period.

Just because you think it's illegal doesn't make it illegal.

The way you're wording your belief is such that if it's legal but you think it's not legal and it can be proven (?) that you think it's not legal then you can be prosecuted for something that's legal since you thought it wasn't. Am I following you correctly?

Touche.
I think it can be construed as being illegal.
Simply:
Dealer can't do it.
I'm aware that dealer can't do it.
Therefore that awareness can be interpreted as "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

Also, it seems like the NRA would have teams of pro-gun lawyers and would gladly post it if it were clearly legal. Instead they have "Persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle." listed under "Ineligible Persons" in the Federal Laws section, here: http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=60 . So, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Either way the law isn't clear. With terms like "reasonable cause to believe" that can go either way.
So, I chose to steer clear of selling handguns to anyone under 21. If, however, I don't know how old you are, then I guess I don't have "reasonable cause".