Can A Non-FFL Individual Legally Sell A Handgun To Someone Under 21?

[spanky]

Touche.
I think it can be construed as being illegal.
Simply:
Dealer can't do it.
I'm aware that dealer can't do it.
Therefore that awareness can be interpreted as "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

Also, it seems like the NRA would have teams of pro-gun lawyers and would gladly post it if it were clearly legal. Instead they have "Persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle." listed under "Ineligible Persons" in the Federal Laws section, here: http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=60 . So, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Either way the law isn't clear. With terms like "reasonable cause to believe" that can go either way.
So, I chose to steer clear of selling handguns to anyone under 21. If, however, I don't know how old you are, then I guess I don't have "reasonable cause".

So if someone tells you that it is illegal to turn left at a certain intersection but you do it anyway and you get caught (How, I'm not sure) making a legal turn, someone finds out you thought it was illegal, you get thrown in jail and go to court, fined, etc for making a legal turn because you thought it was illegal?


Obviously that link is at least partially incorrect because I've already showed you the state law that says 17-20 year olds can legally possess handguns whereas that link says they cannot.

That said, I can surely respect your opinion on not wanting to sell something to someone for whatever reason but, until proven otherwise, I can't say that it's illegal.

 

[rockmup]

I think you're following his thoughts correctly. . . and it's obvious he's thinking too much

Unless someone does something they shouldn't with the weapon. I would not want to be the one that sold it to them. I understand this could be the case with an adult too but in the Political climate we are in, I wouldn't want to be that person

 

[Manimal]

OK for private sales

 

[derf]

So if someone tells you that it is illegal to turn left at a certain intersection but you do it anyway and you get caught (How, I'm not sure) making a legal turn, someone finds out you thought it was illegal, you get thrown in jail and go to court, fined, etc for making a legal turn because you thought it was illegal?

No, this is where the "reasonable cause to believe" wording comes in. The prosecutor only has to prove that you had "reasonable cause to believe" it was illegal.
Lets say I sold a young BS member one of those CZ-82s.
Suppose he gets caught with it.
There is an investigation. Police discover he got the gun on this site. Police research the sale and find posts by the shooter that say basically "I want one but I can't get one from a dealer." Then they can conclude that I knew he couldn't get one from a dealer, but I sold him one anyway.
They haul me to court and claim that I had "reasonable cause to believe" that the guy could not legally acquire a gun from a dealer. I know the law doesn't state this per se. But, it also does not clearly state anywhere that I can find that it is legal for a non-dealer to sell a handgun to a person under 21.

Obviously that link is at least partially incorrect because I've already showed you the state law that says 17-20 year olds can legally possess handguns whereas that link says they cannot.

No, there is a different section for state laws. If you go there, the LA laws follow what you posted. But, the section I'm quoting is regarding Federal law.

That said, I can surely respect your opinion on not wanting to sell something to someone for whatever reason but, until proven otherwise, I can't say that it's illegal.

I respect your opinion, too. I can't say for sure whether it is legal or not. But, I think the law is vague enough that it could go either way in court.

 

[wrecker704]

If you don't want to sell it don't sell it! half a dozen people have said that already! why don't you just go ask a judge to explain it all to you??

 

[derf]

If you don't want to sell it don't sell it! half a dozen people have said that already! why don't you just go ask a judge to explain it all to you??

You're right, of course.
Why didn't I see that before? If I don't want to sell it, I don't have to sell it. Genius.

 

[rockmup]

You're right, of course.
Genius.

its strong around here as of late

 

[CZowner07]

WOW this thread really got out of hand while I was at work! hahaha I still think we who say you can sell a handgun to someone under 18 if your not a ffl dealer are correct. That is all Im goin to say. Im goin to a wedding be back tomorrow

 

[CZowner07]

Something YOU (derf) quoted... I will quote it again

Federal law prohibits......... any person from selling, delivering, or otherwise transferring a handgun to a person under 18.

 

[derf]

WOW this thread really got out of hand while I was at work! hahaha I still think we who say you can sell a handgun to someone under 18 if your not a ffl dealer are correct. That is all Im goin to say. Im goin to a wedding be back tomorrow

Now you are confused like I was.
21 is the number, not 18.
Between 18-12 is the gray area.
Under 18 I think we agree you shouldn't sell to them.

 

[diat150]

I would play it safe and not sell to anyone under 21. better safe than sorry right? if someone 18-20 wants a pistol then they can get mom or dad to buy for them.

 

[WILDCATT]

under 21

an 18 yr old can possess a pistol.he cant buy it from a FFL.in SC they past a
law allowing an 18 to possess a pistol and buy from FTF.
I cam from a better time in gun control we kids always had pistols,and sold and traded back and forth and the state had a law against it no police I know of ever bothered us.but then you could walk in a store and buy a rifle and walk out.we all had mossbergs 22lr.I once bought a 22 rem/browning autoloader at a pawn shop for $6.my fathe tried it out at the range in the firestation and it would not hit the target,I did not care as it was an auto but he cleaned it and it was a tack driver.

 

[sksshooter]

If a dealer cannot legally do it, and I know that a dealer cannot legally do it, then a judge might think that I have "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."
And the part in quotes is what drives my opinion.
To an anti-gun judge and/or jury it looks like this:
The potential buyer is prohibited by Federal law from buying from a dealer. Knowing that law should give the seller "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited".





This came up because some of the under 21 crowd expressed interest in buying CZ-82s.

you qouted the law but it doesn't state that anyone under 21 is prohibited to recieve, or posses a handgun. it states that noone under 18 can recieve or possess a handgun and if you really want to look at it that way then that contradicts being able to give your own child under 18 a handgun.

 

[sksshooter]

well ok maybe the part you qouted doesnt say 18 but it is stated in the law that was posted previously. and what reason would you have to think that a person couldnt legally posses a gun because there 18 because nowhere does it say it is illegal in fact it basically says it is legal by stating that noone under 18 can purchase or posses a handgun.

 

[derf]

The law is clear about parents giving handguns to children under 18.
It is not clear on non-FFLs selling guns to people 18-21.

Persons 18-21 are prohibited from purchasing handguns from FFLs by Federal law.
That could be taken as "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

Some states have laws which make it clear. LA does not. If you do it you are betting against a court deciding what "reasonable cause to believe" is. Hopefully it will never happen.

 

[sksshooter]

i dont think i have anything to worry about im over 21 and to date ive not sold any of my guns and dont plan to. well i did trade an old mauser of some kind for another rifle but that was to a family member.

 

[spanky]

The law is clear about parents giving handguns to children under 18.
It is not clear on non-FFLs selling guns to people 18-21.

Persons 18-21 are prohibited from purchasing handguns from FFLs by Federal law.
That could be taken as "reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law."

Some states have laws which make it clear. LA does not. If you do it you are betting against a court deciding what "reasonable cause to believe" is. Hopefully it will never happen.

Welcome to Napoleanic code. It's not clear because it's not there. It's not there because it's not illegal.

 

[JadeRaven]

§10.3. Specific games; requirements

Any games of chance or skill as described in this Section shall be operated in accordance with this Section:

(1) Milk bottle game. The operator of a milk bottle ball game must operate at all times with the number of milk bottles on the sign. No bottle may weigh over three pounds, and all bottles shall be free from defects and each set shall be uniform in size. The base on which the bottles shall sit shall be not less than eighteen inches from the ground. The front barrier shall not be higher than the base on which the bottles sit. The base shall be at least six feet from the front barrier. A rim not to exceed one-half inch will be permitted if operating the game "all over." No obstruction whatsoever will be permitted around the base on which the bottles sit if operating the game "all off."

Milk bottle ball game operators are prohibited from using bottles weighing over three pounds, containing defects, or not uniform in size.

Because there is no law saying that regular people and/or FFL dealers can use bottles weighing over three pounds, containing defects, or not uniform in size, it can construed as being illegal.

The simple fact that it is illegal for milk bottle ball game operators to use these non-uniform, defective, or heavy ass bottles is reasonable cause to believe that it is illegal for you or I to use them.

I myself keep very few bottles, and always make sure that the ones I use are free of defects, lightweight, and uniform in size to any other bottles in-use. This however, does not prevent me from using bottles of a different style, but I am always sure not to mix up my forties and longnecks with my other standard size beer bottles. Also I simply refrain from purchasing any bottle over two pounds, just to be safe.

 

[Suburbazine]

Wait, we have laws for games? Holy crap, we need to impeach/fire some legislators.