Don't talk to the police

[Nolacopusmc]

Waiting for a lawyer doesn't mean you can't write a report. Just wait until you talk to the guy.

You can still corroborate stories with other witnesses after getting the post-lawyer statement.

Am I missing something?

Yes you are missing a lot, like many on here.

Not saying you are dumb or LEO is better than anyone,just saying many are ignorant of the facts in how the process works in real life from start to finish. It is not like TV or what the internet tells you. What has been explained on here by several LEO is pretty damn close with the fact that there will be variables in every case.

I tend to believe the people who arrest criminals and deal with victims on a daily basis. Each person will make their own decision just like which gun to carry, holster to use, and ammunition selection.

Choose your own tactics, but you have people here who handle shooting scenes weekly. It may be prudent to listen to what they say unless one does not trust their purpose or validity of their first hand information.
'
Just saying.

 

[RCRAMIE]

Yes you are missing a lot, like many on here.

Not saying you are dumb or LEO is better than anyone,just saying many are ignorant of the facts in how the process works in real life from start to finish. It is not like TV or what the internet tells you. What has been explained on here by several LEO is pretty damn close with the fact that there will be variables in every case.

I tend to believe the people who arrest criminals and deal with victims on a daily basis. Each person will make their own decision just like which gun to carry, holster to use, and ammunition selection.

Choose your own tactics, but you have people here who handle shooting scenes weekly. It may be prudent to listen to what they say unless one does not trust their purpose or validity of their first hand information.
'
Just saying.

What about the Det on the video who agreed with the lawyer, or the fact the LEO patrolman and me as the shooter goal on the scene are two different things. I will talk to LEO after the lawyer gets there I don't see the reason for the rush.
Give me one example where not waiting can help?

 

[FishingBack]

Yes you are missing a lot, like many on here.

Not saying you are dumb or LEO is better than anyone,just saying many are ignorant of the facts in how the process works in real life from start to finish. It is not like TV or what the internet tells you. What has been explained on here by several LEO is pretty damn close with the fact that there will be variables in every case.

I tend to believe the people who arrest criminals and deal with victims on a daily basis. Each person will make their own decision just like which gun to carry, holster to use, and ammunition selection.

Choose your own tactics, but you have people here who handle shooting scenes weekly. It may be prudent to listen to what they say unless one does not trust their purpose or validity of their first hand information.
'
Just saying.

Of course the LEO want us to talk. It makes their job easier and helps them lock people up.

The LEO are approaching the situation from another side - a side that doesn't care whether you run free or hang. They are doing their job.

Nobody should advocate sitting down indian style and clamming up (despite tunatuk's other posts). A basic description along the lines of "he tried to run me over with his car and I defended myself" would be fine. The rest of the statement can be made AFTER calming down and consulting representation.

 

[Det.Blair]

This is truly entertaining to me, thats all I can say. Good luck to everyone if you have the unfortunate experience of being in a justifiable homicide incident. Though we are not experts and neither are lawyers but we have had the opportunity to be involved in cases like this , believe it or not. As for lawyers costing $ 150- 250 hr. (unless he is your brother-in-law) do you really believe he is going to get this straight in 1 hour, his clock is a ticking, oh by the way do you think he is coming out at 3am, but hell for those rates I would come out and milk it.

P.S.
knowing lawyers like I do, they probaly want a retainer fee say between $2500-5000 but them high dollar lawyers maybe 10K.

 

[FishingBack]

What about the Det on the video who agreed with the lawyer, or the fact the LEO patrolman and me as the shooter goal on the scene are two different things. I will talk to LEO after the lawyer gets there I don't see the reason for the rush.
Give me one example where not waiting can help?

If there were accomplices on the run, that would be info to share with LEO.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Of course the LEO want us to talk. It makes their job easier and helps them lock people up.

The LEO are approaching the situation from another side - a side that doesn't care whether you run free or hang. They are doing their job.

Nobody should advocate sitting down indian style and clamming up (despite tunatuk's other posts). A basic description along the lines of "he tried to run me over with his car and I defended myself" would be fine. The rest of the statement can be made AFTER calming down and consulting representation.

This is why these threads tuen into cop bashing.

1. How do you know what the goal of the LEO is? ARe you a LEO or even that individual person?

2. FYI...our goal is not to lock you up. Our goal is to arrest the parties who we have reasonable belief are guilty of a crime as defined by LA statute or local ordnance based on the facts. If that is you, well then there you have it. However, if you are involved in a justified use of force incident, then you truly do have nothing to fear from the police.

3. We do care if you go free or hang...again..cop bashing or ignorant drivel that lends nothing positive to the discussion. I know this is hard to comprehend for many, but LEO are people too. Most of us have morals, values, and a conscious. If you were innocent, we would help you. That is what good cops do--help good people.

4. It is because of posts like this that LEO's get frustrated and make comments like " You weren't there so you do not understand."

5. I know it is hard, but people really need to try to stop judging all LEO motivations and practices based on a traffic stop, which other than being the victim of a crime is the major and sometimes only interaction the average law-abiding citizen had with LEO.


This mindset that the cops are out to get you, which is exactly what this post conveys is why LEO get frustrated with these discussions.


But let me guess, you were not LEO bashing right?

 

[Cat]

No offense on the question, but in all seriousness, is there a reason why you, as an LEO, would want the guy to talk to you immediately rather than wait a half hour for his lawyer to arrive?

I'm looking at it from this angle. In a straight home invasion, no questions asked, busted door frame, thug jacked up on crack, etc... It's obvious the home owner has done nothing wrong. Anything he says in his report after the investigation is over, can be requested, correct? Even if he does not say anything that incriminates him in a crime, can he say something that the thug's family can pick up and use against him in a civil case?

It's just... The LEO's are pushing this idea of immediate and full cooperation pretty hard. I can understand that in a case where the guy is caught red handed guilty. But in a domestic situation such as this, why not say "okay, we'll wait"? I genuinely don't understand.


Edit to add: I think both sides have reasonably good arguments. I'm one that sings like a canary and babbles when nervous. But my family has also interacted with at least two detectives on the SO staff and I'd feel extremely comfortable knowing they'd be fair and just. In fact I'm personally more likely to request one detective in particular before I am a lawyer. I'm curious because unless I missed a post, I still don't see a reason why it might be bad form to say "Sir, I'd like a lawyer please" in a polite, courtesy manner.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

No offense on the question, but in all seriousness, is there a reason why you, as an LEO, would want the guy to talk to you immediately rather than wait a half hour for his lawyer to arrive?

I'm looking at it from this angle. In a straight home invasion, no questions asked, busted door frame, thug jacked up on crack, etc... It's obvious the home owner has done nothing wrong. Anything he says in his report after the investigation is over, can be requested, correct? Even if he does not say anything that incriminates him in a crime, can he say something that the thug's family can pick up and use against him in a civil case?

It's just... The LEO's are pushing this idea of immediate and full cooperation pretty hard. I can understand that in a case where the guy is caught red handed guilty. But in a domestic situation such as this, why not say "okay, we'll wait"? I genuinely don't understand.

Cat, like many here, you are reading things that simply are not there.

1. No one here is advocating :immediate and full cooperation."

GO back and read my posts, you will see that is not at all what I or any other LEO is advocating.

 

[Bayoupiper]

Since I am only out to arrest someone, why do you have to wait for your attorney?

What are you hiding?










(Note: That is sarcasm for the uninitiated)


.

 

[Bayoupiper]

For what it is worth, I am basing my opinion and statements on the opinions of my attorney, the attorneys and firearms trainers I've worked with, and that rather intelligent fellow in the video, in that order.

I have never shot anyone, I don't want to shoot anyone, I don't pretend to be an expert at anything. I know less about guns than I do about women and less about the law and legal process than either one.

That said, the attorneys and firearms trainers (most of them former leo's all of them very familiar with hundreds of defensive shootings) have all given ME the exact same advice, to a man, and that advice is what I have posted in this thread.

I fully support law enforcement officers, appreciate what they do, and my only reason for saying what I've said about not talking to the police is that it is a consistent message from the individuals I've cited - all of whom have vast amounts of real world experience.

You do know that Louisiana law required law enforcement to arrest anyone with a bannana sticking out of their ear, right?



.

 

[FishingBack]

This is why these threads tuen into cop bashing.

1. How do you know what the goal of the LEO is? ARe you a LEO or even that individual person?

2. FYI...our goal is not to lock you up. Our goal is to arrest the parties who we have reasonable belief are guilty of a crime as defined by LA statute or local ordnance based on the facts. If that is you, well then there you have it. However, if you are involved in a justified use of force incident, then you truly do have nothing to fear from the police.

3. We do care if you go free or hang...again..cop bashing or ignorant drivel that lends nothing positive to the discussion. I know this is hard to comprehend for many, but LEO are people too. Most of us have morals, values, and a conscious. If you were innocent, we would help you. That is what good cops do--help good people.

4. It is because of posts like this that LEO's get frustrated and make comments like " You weren't there so you do not understand."

5. I know it is hard, but people really need to try to stop judging all LEO motivations and practices based on a traffic stop, which other than being the victim of a crime is the major and sometimes only interaction the average law-abiding citizen had with LEO.


This mindset that the cops are out to get you, which is exactly what this post conveys is why LEO get frustrated with these discussions.


But let me guess, you were not LEO bashing right?

1. The goal of LEO is to enforce the law. That means ascertaining facts and arresting people suspected of breaking the law. Real rocket science here. Do you have to BE a LEO to understand that? Heck no.

2. We are in agreement, your job is to lock up people who have broken the law. That's what I said - I didn't mean that the LEO was looking for any excuse to lock up the self defense shooter. In most cases, we should have nothing to fear from the LEO.

3. Maybe I should clarify. The LEO will record the statements and do all the investigative work. If an inconsistency comes up in court because the shooter said something stupid, the LEO cannot help you. The LEO is not trying to frame your words for you to look inoocent. The LEO is doing his/her best to collect data. Can you see the difference?

4. Patience is a virtue - I'm always open to opinions and explanations, especially of LEO in situations where they have experience. "You just have to be there" just sounds like there is no good explanation.

This mindset that the cops are out to get you, which is exactly what this post conveys is why LEO get frustrated with these discussions.

Ahhh, but the rub is that the cops ARE out to get you if you give them a reason to think you did something wrong.

I have had only good experiences with cops in non-traffic situations.

Perhaps we should refine and clarify the message here:

It's not the police you are afraid of. It's the lawyers trying to twist everything you said into something bad. It's the police report where that is obtained.

The point of calming down and speaking with a lawyer is not to get a guilty person off the hook, but to make maintaining innocence easier in the face of great scrutiny.

 

[RCRAMIE]

Nolacop can you give a example where it would help not to wait for lawyer?

 

[Bayoupiper]

I gave all of you a documented out and you all failed to see it.....................






.

 

[RCRAMIE]

OK, so I'll give some real world experience on this one. I doubt anyone on this board has ever been on either side of this scenarios (LEO or a shooter). I have been on the LEO side, and have seen first hand how a statement, contrary to ya'll's popular belief, helped keep a guy out of jail.

Dispatch notifies us of a shooting, one subject down and unresponsive. We arrive on scene, and see a guy still holding a revolver. One subject inside the doorway has a single shot through the nose. He is deader than a door nail.

Shooter is the stepfather, dead guy is stepson. Momma is having a conniption fit, and brother is pissed off as well. Momma says that daddy done shot the boy for no reason whatsoever. Nevermind the AK that is laying underneath the boy. Dead guy's brother isn't saying a thing.

We secure all the weapons, and the shooter. Shooter is brought to the office. Detectives interview him. He says that he and the stepson got into an argument over some stupid stuff. Stepson says I got something for you, and goes and gets the AK out of his truck. The shooter had retreated into a different part of the house and armed himself out of fear. Stepson comes in, levels the AK, and the shooter puts one round in his brain carrier.

Now, if he did not make a statement, he would have been arrested. If he would have wanted to have his lawyer come, he would have been arrested. All we would have been presented with is the mom's statement, and the little evidence on the scene. This incident went before a Grand Jury, and they returned a No True Bill within minutes.

So yeah, I guess it is stupid to say anything to police.

That one?
Thoses statements could have been made after my lawyer gets there and I talk with him.
Love the part about arresting him because he wanted his lawyer maybe that should be reworded.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Nolacop can you give a example where it would help not to wait for lawyer?

That has been explained several times in thus thread. The idea is to devkop rapport.

the problem is too many peoe here feel the police are out to get them, so to them this concept makes no sense.

 

[RCRAMIE]

That has been explained several times in thus thread. The idea is to devkop rapport.

The problem is too many peoe here feel the police are out to get them, so to them this concept makes no sense.

I don't we are that far off from each other here. Im not saying be a ******* about not talking, but more worried about saying something that could be taking out of context, I don't think cops are out to get me but I do belive we would have different goals.
If it is a clean shoot, and hope if anybody is here is ever involved that is the case, that will come out in the investigation, I expect it to be a long one and know waiting a couple of hours or even over night for my lawyer will in the long run will be better for me.
I was LEO for 7 years of my life, left due to pay, my father is retired LEO
My best friend is still LEO. I have the most respect I can for people who do the job or have done the job, but in that case im more worried about me, innocent people have went to jail before.

 

[Det.Blair]

No two situations are the same people. Those of you who think you need a lawyer get one as it seems thats everyones consensus except us LEO. I think it has been explained to we are blue in the face. hell get you two lawyers I do not care. maybe get a copy of the La. criminal code of procedure and read it, its self explanatory that is LEO "bible". Its has the do's and don'ts for everyone. I think Nolacop and other LEO's have tried to no avail. What if **** is not going to get it because we can what if till the cows come home. Go sit down with a lawyer and ask him all the same questions at $150-250 @ hr., he will tell you what you want to hear. Probably say something like do not say nothing HIRE me, no sweat off my back people, I know how the system works, so I am prepared. If it worries you all so much do not carry a weapon. It is a huge responsibility as you well know, been carrying one for the last 30 yrs. Its like driving a car, if you are always scared about getting in a wreck and getting hurt do not drive. I am not going to get into a pissing contest with no one.

 

[Cat]

I gave all of you a documented out and you all failed to see it.....................






.

I noticed that but no other LEO that I have seen has mentioned it. Do you teach your recruits that in a case of self defense to give stronger credence to the next day over immediately following?

I'm stuck in a car headed to Texas so now I'm asking out of boredom.

 

[RCRAMIE]

No two situations are the same people. Those of you who think you need a lawyer get one as it seems thats everyones consensus except us LEO. I think it has been explained to we are blue in the face. hell get you two lawyers I do not care. maybe get a copy of the La. criminal code of procedure and read it, its self explanatory that is LEO "bible". Its has the do's and don'ts for everyone. I think Nolacop and other LEO's have tried to no avail. What if **** is not going to get it because we can what if till the cows come home. Go sit down with a lawyer and ask him all the same questions at $150-250 @ hr., he will tell you what you want to hear. Probably say something like do not say nothing HIRE me, no sweat off my back people, I know how the system works, so I am prepared. If it worries you all so much do not carry a weapon. It is a huge responsibility as you well know, been carrying one for the last 30 yrs. Its like driving a car, if you are always scared about getting in a wreck and getting hurt do not drive. I am not going to get into a pissing contest with no one.

Not trying to have a pissing contest trying to have a adult conversation.
For a LEO you sure do have thin skin. It is simple if you just shot someone you will need a lawyer. I don't expect it to be a cheap outcome. How can it help me by not having one?

 

[Nolacopusmc]

I don't we are that far off from each other here. Im not saying be a ******* about not talking, but more worried about saying something that could be taking out of context, I don't think cops are out to get me but I do belive we would have different goals.
If it is a clean shoot, and hope if anybody is here is ever involved that is the case, that will come out in the investigation, I expect it to be a long one and know waiting a couple of hours or even over night for my lawyer will in the long run will be better for me.
I was LEO for 7 years of my life, left due to pay, my father is retired LEO
My best friend is still LEO. I have the most respect I can for people who do the job or have done the job, but in that case im more worried about me, innocent people have went to jail before.

That is fine, just be prepared to wait for your lawyer in jail in many situations. Without any statement from you, there is a dead guy on your sofa and no story. That is homicide without justification.

Like I told CAT, read my earlier posts on this thread. Do not get diarrhea of the mouth, but give the guy something to go off of. The basics. No details.

It is more about how you ask for your lawyer than the fact that you do.

I have actually been on scenes where I told the guy to shut-up because he was rambling, and the preliminary investigation showed him to be right.