Don't talk to the police

[Nolacopusmc]

Okay, now _I'm_ confused.

You became Louisana P.O.S.T. certified while on active duty in The Crotch?????

.

No, I was reserve USMC. Got post certified the summer after I graduated boot camp.

 

[OneStory]

I may have missed it, but could you please post a proper introduction to yourself in a new thread and give us a little about your background. You are a very interesting fellow.

I prefer "interesting" to "wierd"...but have been called both before without being offended.

It is proper for you to request an introduction. When I first signed on here at BS, I was tempted to make a "new member introduction". I haven't yet - mainly because I didn't want people to discount my opinions based upon my lack of experience in this forum's specific focus. I know people will do that...like the judge in my story who rightfully took the word of a 25yr veteran state trooper over my word. I guess I figure that, like saying nothing before talking to my attorney, I am better off not saying anything about myself for fear of it being used against me...I know that I am in good company here at BS but some of the posters are down right rude.

Another reason that I haven't posted an introduction is that I'm more likely to leave out any credentials that I do have. I try to be humble and avoid listing my accomplishments and associations. I'm not saying that you are not humble by listing your associations on your signature and such - that is what is normal and expected in your profession. I am satisfied mentioning God in my info, a quote from Gandalf that is dear to me and a very vague referrence to Bruce Lee.

Anyway, It is not proper for me to mingle with you folks without a proper introduction. I hope that everything I have posted, so far, has cast a favorable light upon my character. I'll look over the New Member Introduction section to see what is expected and "normal". Then I'll post some things about myself. I hope you aren't disappointed. I'm really just a regular guy...nothing "special" at all.

 

[FishingBack]

That is fine, just be prepared to wait for your lawyer in jail in many situations. Without any statement from you, there is a dead guy on your sofa and no story. That is homicide without justification.

Like I told CAT, read my earlier posts on this thread. Do not get diarrhea of the mouth, but give the guy something to go off of. The basics. No details.

It is more about how you ask for your lawyer than the fact that you do.

I have actually been on scenes where I told the guy to shut-up because he was rambling, and the preliminary investigation showed him to be right.

I think we have reached the common ground with this post. Keep up the good work making Nola safer.

 

[Cat]

Good read. What does the mirror/ six reference mean?

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Good read. What does the mirror/ six reference mean?

Check your six....six o'clock.....behind you. Always watching your back.

Old military term....like after action report.

 

[Cat]

Gotcha.

 

[posse comatosis]

After reading that, I'm gong to feel like an idiot carrying my little five shot snubby.

Two tactical aspects that stand out are the apparent lack of immediate efficacy in some hits, and the limited capacity of the shooter's 45 caliber handgun.

Would he have been better off with a 357 MAGNUM revolver with full house rounds and double or single tap each suspect?

There are two perceived problems on my part with the 45 as a defense round. Most people load with hollow points, and the expansion limits penetration. Secondly, the 45 does not have the hydrostatic shock and partial bullet fragmentation of the 357 MAG. Small guys, no problem. However, I see both of these as very serious potential problems when dealing with over-sized thugs.

 

[honestlou]

I have a few points that I want to make regarding a self-defense shooting:

1) Call 911. You are the victim making the complaint. I need an ambulance and police. Very briefly state minimal facts, ie. he broke into my house and I was in fear for my life and I shot him. [You are not giving any information that the on-scene evidence won't give, but you are establishing that you are the victim]

2) Your statement to the responding officers CAN make a difference in whether or not you spend the night in jail, but is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to make a positive difference in the long run. Be polite, and your statement should probably be the same thing you told 911, with the addition of pointing out the bad guy and any evidence that could be lost. Emphasize that you want to cooperate, but that you are really shaken up and want an opportunity to calm down before you make a full statement. You do not have to say you want a lawyer; just don't say anything else.

3) Remember that the 5th amendment was intended to protect the innocent. It is not a dirty word. Silence does not imply guilt. Having said that, it is human nature to think that if you were innocent you wouldn't mind talking. That is why LEOs are VERY FRUSTRATED when people won't talk. It interferes with their job. This still does not make the 5th amendment a negative thing, and you should avail yourself of its protections.

4) Even if it makes no difference in the criminal proceeding, anything you say can be potentially disastrous in the civil suit which will surely follow, and which has very different burdens of proof.

 

[Bayoupiper]

I have a few points that I want to make regarding a self-defense shooting:

1) Call 911. You are the victim making the complaint. I need an ambulance and police. Very briefly state minimal facts, ie. he broke into my house and I was in fear for my life and I shot him. [You are not giving any information that the on-scene evidence won't give, but you are establishing that you are the victim]

2) Your statement to the responding officers CAN make a difference in whether or not you spend the night in jail, but is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to make a positive difference in the long run. Be polite, and your statement should probably be the same thing you told 911, with the addition of pointing out the bad guy and any evidence that could be lost. Emphasize that you want to cooperate, but that you are really shaken up and want an opportunity to calm down before you make a full statement. You do not have to say you want a lawyer; just don't say anything else.

3) Remember that the 5th amendment was intended to protect the innocent. It is not a dirty word. Silence does not imply guilt. Having said that, it is human nature to think that if you were innocent you wouldn't mind talking. That is why LEOs are VERY FRUSTRATED when people won't talk. It interferes with their job. This still does not make the 5th amendment a negative thing, and you should avail yourself of its protections.

4) Even if it makes no difference in the criminal proceeding, anything you say can be potentially disastrous in the civil suit which will surely follow, and which has very different burdens of proof.

Well stated!



.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

I have a few points that I want to make regarding a self-defense shooting:

1) Call 911. You are the victim making the complaint. I need an ambulance and police. Very briefly state minimal facts, ie. he broke into my house and I was in fear for my life and I shot him. [You are not giving any information that the on-scene evidence won't give, but you are establishing that you are the victim]

2) Your statement to the responding officers CAN make a difference in whether or not you spend the night in jail, but is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to make a positive difference in the long run. Be polite, and your statement should probably be the same thing you told 911, with the addition of pointing out the bad guy and any evidence that could be lost. Emphasize that you want to cooperate, but that you are really shaken up and want an opportunity to calm down before you make a full statement. You do not have to say you want a lawyer; just don't say anything else.

3) Remember that the 5th amendment was intended to protect the innocent. It is not a dirty word. Silence does not imply guilt. Having said that, it is human nature to think that if you were innocent you wouldn't mind talking. That is why LEOs are VERY FRUSTRATED when people won't talk. It interferes with their job. This still does not make the 5th amendment a negative thing, and you should avail yourself of its protections.

4) Even if it makes no difference in the criminal proceeding, anything you say can be potentially disastrous in the civil suit which will surely follow, and which has very different burdens of proof.

All true.

 

[Summit_Ace]

iop1 of the spinoff.


You make some good points. What I teach is kinda hybrid of answering the "Tell me what happened" question as the LEO opens the rear door of the unit and leans in while you are cuffed int he back. Convo would go comething like this......


You: "I was sleeping, I heard a noise. I went down stairs and saw an intruder. I drew my firearm and told him to leave. He refused and I thought he was going to hurt me or my family. I defended myself."

OFC: "How many times did you fire?"

You: "I really do not know"

OFC: "I mean once, a hundred times, how many shots do you think you took."

This is where you do what I call "Keep it real." You definitely want to protect your 5th A rights, but it is in your best interest to develop some kind of rapport with the LEO (assuming this is a righteous shoot). I advise my students to be honest but guarded. For example...

You: "Officer, I will do anything you need me to do. I will cooperate in anyway I can, I would feel much more comfortable with my lawyer here."

OFC: "Dude, you did nothing wrong, I just need to know what happened."

You: (without sarcasm) " Man, I know I did nothing wrong. I thought he was going to kill me, so I defended myself. I promise, I will answer any questions, make a statement, whatever you need, I just feel it is in my best interest to have my attorney here. I am scared and very shaken up. As soon as he gets here, I will tell you whatever you need to know."


Now, putting aside the notion that all LEO are out to screw you over, and real cop, any real man, when told that, seeing the scene for what it is, will understand and see that you are only further protecting yourself. Truth be told, like any other crime, LEO will have already made a pre-investigative determination of basically if it is a good / bad shoot. If it is good, TRUST ME, we are on your side.


I say, be honest but guarded. Do not admit details without an attorney. Develop a rapport, but do not get diarrhea of the mouth.

I'm a little behind on the conversation, but this is awesome advise. I heard Massad Ayoob talk on this topic and his points were along the same lines. Courteous but quiet as possible with out being an ass. One thing he said and you mention the same thing, is that it is important to make it clear your life was in danger and you defended yourself. If there are any witnesses it is important to point them out as well.

 

[posse comatosis]

Talk to the popo:
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/2009/Network-2009-11.pdf

Don't talk to the popo:
http://www.gunthorp.com/hosters badges.htm
Scroll down to talking to the police

 

[Sin-ster]

Talk to the popo:
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/2009/Network-2009-11.pdf

Don't talk to the popo:
http://www.gunthorp.com/hosters badges.htm
Scroll down to talking to the police

Notice in the article advocating that you speak to the police, he uses "perhaps", "let's say", "can/might", etc. quite a bit. How about... a fact? Or at least a firm declarative statement.

As it's been stated, you can cooperate without running off at the mouth. "I want to help out, I'm just not in the right condition to give a statement right now."

He does raise some good points about witnesses lying and the investigation being bobbled, however for an ex-police officer, he doesn't seem to have much faith in that aspect of the system.

Most importantly, he raises an issue that I'm surprised to not have seen in this thread already-- The negative stigma of "lawyering up". As the final say will be with a jury of your "peers", the effect of keeping your mouth shut has to be considered. Even after the judge explains that you were within your rights to keep quiet, and that fact should in no way effect their decision... it's still got to be a factor, right?

 

[nola]

iop1 of the spinoff.


You make some good points. What I teach is kinda hybrid of answering the "Tell me what happened" question as the LEO opens the rear door of the unit and leans in while you are cuffed int he back. Convo would go comething like this......


You: "I was sleeping, I heard a noise. I went down stairs and saw an intruder. I drew my firearm and told him to leave. He refused and I thought he was going to hurt me or my family. I defended myself."

OFC: "How many times did you fire?"

You: "I really do not know"

OFC: "I mean once, a hundred times, how many shots do you think you took."

This is where you do what I call "Keep it real." You definitely want to protect your 5th A rights, but it is in your best interest to develop some kind of rapport with the LEO (assuming this is a righteous shoot). I advise my students to be honest but guarded. For example...

You: "Officer, I will do anything you need me to do. I will cooperate in anyway I can, I would feel much more comfortable with my lawyer here."

OFC: "Dude, you did nothing wrong, I just need to know what happened."

You: (without sarcasm) " Man, I know I did nothing wrong. I thought he was going to kill me, so I defended myself. I promise, I will answer any questions, make a statement, whatever you need, I just feel it is in my best interest to have my attorney here. I am scared and very shaken up. As soon as he gets here, I will tell you whatever you need to know."


Now, putting aside the notion that all LEO are out to screw you over, and real cop, any real man, when told that, seeing the scene for what it is, will understand and see that you are only further protecting yourself. Truth be told, like any other crime, LEO will have already made a pre-investigative determination of basically if it is a good / bad shoot. If it is good, TRUST ME, we are on your side.


I say, be honest but guarded. Do not admit details without an attorney. Develop a rapport, but do not get diarrhea of the mouth.

I'm an LEO and I agree with the above.

 

[posse comatosis]

(a) real cop, any real man, when told that, seeing the scene for what it is

LOL, and what if the investigating officer is a broad?

 

[BobKaro]

Check your six....six o'clock.....behind you. Always watching your back.

Old military term....like after action report.

And PITA