The attack stops three ways: The attacker decides to (usually out of fear), CNS damage, or blood loss to major organs incapacitating the attacker. It doesn't mean that it will kill them, but we are talking about a life and death altercation. There are small, easy to carry guns in calibers that are adequate to meet all three scenarios. I don't see the need for .380 ACP when there are other options.
Interesting study on handgun wounding...
- Thread starter deafdave3
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The attack stops three ways: The attacker decides to (usually out of fear), CNS damage, or blood loss to major organs incapacitating the attacker. It doesn't mean that it will kill them, but we are talking about a life and death altercation. There are small, easy to carry guns in calibers that are adequate to meet all three scenarios. I don't see the need for .380 ACP when there are other options.
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
You should NEVER assume the first option. The third option is great and all, but a determined attacker can and will kill you before he bleeds out. Therefore option number two is the only consistent means of stopping any threat. That is why shot placement is critical, but caliber is still a factor. And a .380ACP ain't getting that job done.
Dave,
Go watch this video
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story...o-in-fatal-police/iedfh79Tn0-aR4mMyO8R2A.cspx
It's a BG charging a cop with a knife. I read that this PD uses .40 and the cop put quite a few in the BG. Notice how the lead absorption did not stop the attackers forward momentum? And that's a much bigger, faster bullet than yours.
Also, notice how the BG is hell bent on killing the cop? With a butcher knife? It's your life, or maybe your loved one's, but I think it's a huge mistake to opt for anything less than lethal force when the time comes to use a gun. I don't think anyone should ever count on the sight of a gun ending a problem either. Perhaps it would if you were attacked by a rational being. But I'll give you large odds that most BGs are too drugged or crazed to behave as you hope. As i said, it's your life, that's my .02.
Go watch this video
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story...o-in-fatal-police/iedfh79Tn0-aR4mMyO8R2A.cspx
It's a BG charging a cop with a knife. I read that this PD uses .40 and the cop put quite a few in the BG. Notice how the lead absorption did not stop the attackers forward momentum? And that's a much bigger, faster bullet than yours.
Also, notice how the BG is hell bent on killing the cop? With a butcher knife? It's your life, or maybe your loved one's, but I think it's a huge mistake to opt for anything less than lethal force when the time comes to use a gun. I don't think anyone should ever count on the sight of a gun ending a problem either. Perhaps it would if you were attacked by a rational being. But I'll give you large odds that most BGs are too drugged or crazed to behave as you hope. As i said, it's your life, that's my .02.
Yeah, I've heard that story a few times. Most important aspect: I'm not a cop. I'm just a private citizen who minds his own business and stays out of people's way. We also don't frequent places where a drugged-crazed, doped up maniac is likely to be. My BERSA .380 has not failed me, and I don't ever believe it will.
Everyone has opinions. No amount of opinions, bashing, name-calling, or whatever... is gonna change my mind about what I see fit to protect myself and my family with.
Hey I'm not trying to put you down, just discussing tactics and tools.
Even mods can't fix stupid.
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
Never said it was. Just stating the facts.
You were absolutely correct, and I was just building off of what you posted to help illustrate the error of some peoples' thought process.
I guess I've never seen anyone killed with 380 acp. Oh wait I have, more than one in fact. I'll tell the next of kin that they shouldn't have died from 380 acp and start looking to see if they had a heart attack instead.
I don't carry 380 acp myself. But all handguns hit about the same in my experience. The hollow points don't expand most of the time. There just isn't enough velocity. The round has to penetrate deeply enough to cause blood loss or hit the CNS.
I've see people dropped like the hammer of God hit them from 25 acp. I've treated people shoot multiple times (More than I could figure out the time with all the exits/entrances) from a LEO's handgun who ran for blocks before finding some place to stop. I've seen that for than once in fact. Those were .40 S&W JHP rounds by the way. I've also seen people dropped right where the stood from 40 s&w.
I personally treated people shot with every major self defense caliber over twenty years in the field. Some live, some die, some never get transported b/c their dead before I get there. I can tell you this. All handgun rounds hit about the same.
Dave
I don't carry 380 acp myself. But all handguns hit about the same in my experience. The hollow points don't expand most of the time. There just isn't enough velocity. The round has to penetrate deeply enough to cause blood loss or hit the CNS.
I've see people dropped like the hammer of God hit them from 25 acp. I've treated people shoot multiple times (More than I could figure out the time with all the exits/entrances) from a LEO's handgun who ran for blocks before finding some place to stop. I've seen that for than once in fact. Those were .40 S&W JHP rounds by the way. I've also seen people dropped right where the stood from 40 s&w.
I personally treated people shot with every major self defense caliber over twenty years in the field. Some live, some die, some never get transported b/c their dead before I get there. I can tell you this. All handgun rounds hit about the same.
Dave
I agree all marginal hits are marginal regardless of caliber. The same cannot be said of effective hits. A fight stopper to the brain stem with a 9mm becomes a non- lethal wound with a .25 or .380 because they fail to breach bone.
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
I've also been told a first hand account of someone being killed by a single round of .22LR up the butthole. That doesn't mean I'm going to carry a .22 and aim between the cheeks.
We should plan for the worst case scenario, not hope for the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA&feature=youtu.be
This doctor is delivering a lecture to paramedics about GSW's. He actually knows guns. His lecture is the BEST I've ever heard for describing the true effects of GSW's. It's about 1/2 hour long and is excellent. Thanks to Request Dust Off for sending it to me.
LSP972,
I agree with you and also am not a huge fan of 380 acp. But for slightly different reasons than those that have been mentioned. Bullet mass is very important. Far more important that hollow point mega death rounds being pimped this week at Guns and Ammo or Handguns or insert magazine of your choice here.
Although on a side bar the new bonded core JHP's should do better. But not b/c of the hollow points. I still don't think that those will work consistantly even in the newest generation design. I think the bonded core will work better b/c the bullet will retain more mass leading to deeper penetration possibly even through bones. The old JHP's would shed a jacket sometimes and loose mass too quickly which will lead to inadequate penetration.
I'm not a huge fan of 380 acp and prefer 32 acp over it for one reason. If I'm going smaller caliber. The 380 acp bullet is wider and also at a low speed. It'll have more problems getting deep enough to cause major bleeding and is more likely to deflect off of bones. The 32 acp I believe will penetrate deeper and with a good solid bullet will go through some bones. For those who are human anatony and physiology challenged most of the stuff in which you REALLY want to make a hole in is protected by bone.
Notice I didn't say anything about ballistic gell. Ballistic gel is NOT a human analog.
Dave
This doctor is delivering a lecture to paramedics about GSW's. He actually knows guns. His lecture is the BEST I've ever heard for describing the true effects of GSW's. It's about 1/2 hour long and is excellent. Thanks to Request Dust Off for sending it to me.
LSP972,
I agree with you and also am not a huge fan of 380 acp. But for slightly different reasons than those that have been mentioned. Bullet mass is very important. Far more important that hollow point mega death rounds being pimped this week at Guns and Ammo or Handguns or insert magazine of your choice here.
Although on a side bar the new bonded core JHP's should do better. But not b/c of the hollow points. I still don't think that those will work consistantly even in the newest generation design. I think the bonded core will work better b/c the bullet will retain more mass leading to deeper penetration possibly even through bones. The old JHP's would shed a jacket sometimes and loose mass too quickly which will lead to inadequate penetration.
I'm not a huge fan of 380 acp and prefer 32 acp over it for one reason. If I'm going smaller caliber. The 380 acp bullet is wider and also at a low speed. It'll have more problems getting deep enough to cause major bleeding and is more likely to deflect off of bones. The 32 acp I believe will penetrate deeper and with a good solid bullet will go through some bones. For those who are human anatony and physiology challenged most of the stuff in which you REALLY want to make a hole in is protected by bone.
Notice I didn't say anything about ballistic gell. Ballistic gel is NOT a human analog.
Dave
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