Interesting study on handgun wounding...

[Vanilla Gorilla]

The swine model is as close as we can get in a live medium. And your dead on about why .32 trumps .380.

 

[deafdave3]

So, if one must choose between a .32ACP and a .380ACP, y'all are saying the .32 is a better choice?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

If the choice is between a huge turd and a pile of
Crap yes .32 is better but why not just make a better set of options?

 

[dawg23]

I'll tell the next of kin that they shouldn't have died from 380 acp and start looking to see if they had a heart attack instead.

I personally treated people shot with every major self defense caliber over twenty years in the field. Some live, some die, some never get transported b/c their dead before I get there. I can tell you this. All handgun rounds hit about the same.

Dave

1. I seem to recall from previous posts that you are an EMT (or a variant thereof - not sure of the proper terminology). Is it common for an EMT to discuss the cause of death with next of kin ?

2. I'm not sure what you mean by "all handgun rounds hit the same," but I presume we'd all agree that some handgun rounds penetrate deeper, and expand more, in the typical human body than other handgun rounds do.

 

[deafdave3]

....why not just make a better set of options?

Because right now, its not an option. My only option is, "between these two, which is a better back-up?"

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Your carrying a backup gun?

 

[dwr461]

The swine model is as close as we can get in a live medium. And your dead on about why .32 trumps .380.

I'm not familiar with the study. For small pocket type handgun I prefer 32 or 380. I usually go with either 38 special or 9mm Luger most days. More bullet weight.

Is it common for an EMT to discuss the cause of death with next of kin ?

It's a common occurance for us to have to tell the family something when I say that their kin is deceased and we will not be making an effort to resusitate them. It sucks the worst when it's a small child or a young adult with minor children. No, I don't usually get into cause of death. I certainly don't WANT to discuss it. But some people want to talk to me about that subject and ask me questions. I do my level best explain what I can if I think it'll help them.

I seem to recall from previous posts that you are an EMT

Yes I'm also an EMT. You have to be an EMT before you go to Paramedic classes. Currently EMT's I think have about 200 hours of training and Paramedics have slightly over 2,200 hours.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by "all handgun rounds hit the same," but I presume we'd all agree that some handgun rounds penetrate deeper, and expand more, in the typical human body than other handgun rounds do.

I'll do my best to explain. The vast majority of handgun rounds fall into the same general levels of recoil and therefore energy delivered. There are exceptions of course. The 500 S&W for example is a bit more powerful than a typical handgun. They general deliver about the same amount of energy. Look at how many rounds fall between 200 to 500 ft/lbs of energy for example. Physics is physics and you can't make more energy by a bullet design. The energy delivered to the target can be used in several ways. But remember after the bullet impacts the target ft/lbs is MEANINGLESS. Momentum is key at that point.

Momentum determines how the bullet will act when traveling through a body. Momentum is Mass times Velocity. At this point mass is equally important as velocity. So since with all normally daily carried for self defense handguns delivering about the same energy the bullet that has the most mass and can penetrate the deepest is the best choice.

Rifle rounds expand and create a stretch cavity damage. Handgun rounds don't.

However if you watch the video I posted above the doctor will do a MUCH better job than I'm doing in explaining it. It takes him as I said 1/2 hour. I can't sum it up effectively in a paragraph or two.

Dave

 

[Cat]

Yeah, I've heard that story a few times. Most important aspect: I'm not a cop. I'm just a private citizen who minds his own business and stays out of people's way. We also don't frequent places where a drugged-crazed, doped up maniac is likely to be. My BERSA .380 has not failed me, and I don't ever believe it will.

Everyone has opinions. No amount of opinions, bashing, name-calling, or whatever... is gonna change my mind about what I see fit to protect myself and my family with.

Neither did Suzanna Hupp when she was eating a meal with her parents at Luby's cafeteria. Regardless the discussion had here, that is a failed argument at best.

 

[Neil09]

Your carrying a backup gun?

I believe he carries a Bersa in 9mm? I know he bought one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[deafdave3]

Your carrying a backup gun?

Not right at this moment, no, but I usually do.

I believe he carries a Bersa in 9mm? I know he bought one

My primary is a Bersa BP9cc.

 

[swamper]

I'll do my best to explain. The vast majority of handgun rounds fall into the same general levels of recoil and therefore energy delivered. There are exceptions of course. The 500 S&W for example is a bit more powerful than a typical handgun. They general deliver about the same amount of energy. Look at how many rounds fall between 200 to 500 ft/lbs of energy for example. Physics is physics and you can't make more energy by a bullet design. The energy delivered to the target can be used in several ways. But remember after the bullet impacts the target ft/lbs is MEANINGLESS. Momentum is key at that point.

Momentum determines how the bullet will act when traveling through a body. Momentum is Mass times Velocity. At this point mass is equally important as velocity. So since with all normally daily carried for self defense handguns delivering about the same energy the bullet that has the most mass and can penetrate the deepest is the best choice.

Dave

I came to something of the same conclusion in this thread.

http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/...-effectiveness&p=315606&viewfull=1#post315606

 

[sloppy joe]

i carry my lcr 22 as a "backup/get off me" gun, not a job for an auto loader imo. it replaced my nna revolver. cheap to practice and i practice A LOT. head shots are no problem. don't think its possible to miss body shots even in a panic shoot.

not practical but i can hit a human head size target at 70 yards with that little gun. i have almost 3,000 rounds of federal bulk through it. no problems. no beer can lasted more than a second in front the camp. can't wait to see the wounds on gators.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

So you .... Nevermind.....

 

[SlimPickins]

Neither did Suzanna Hupp when she was eating a meal with her parents at Luby's cafeteria. Regardless the discussion had here, that is a failed argument at best.

IIRC, Miss Hupps main problem was that she left her gun in the car b/c she didn't have legal authority to carry it in Lubys ?? So any gun would have been better than no gun. But again IIRC, she had a .40 in the car.

It is really time for more people to carry more often and be better prepared to carry. Training may be the single most important rule after " have a gun "

 

[dawg23]

I'm not familiar with the study. For small pocket type handgun I prefer 32 or 380. I usually go with either 38 special or 9mm Luger most days. More bullet weight.



It's a common occurance for us to have to tell the family something when I say that their kin is deceased and we will not be making an effort to resusitate them. It sucks the worst when it's a small child or a young adult with minor children. No, I don't usually get into cause of death. I certainly don't WANT to discuss it. But some people want to talk to me about that subject and ask me questions. I do my level best explain what I can if I think it'll help them.



Yes I'm also an EMT. You have to be an EMT before you go to Paramedic classes. Currently EMT's I think have about 200 hours of training and Paramedics have slightly over 2,200 hours.



I'll do my best to explain. The vast majority of handgun rounds fall into the same general levels of recoil and therefore energy delivered. There are exceptions of course. The 500 S&W for example is a bit more powerful than a typical handgun. They general deliver about the same amount of energy. Look at how many rounds fall between 200 to 500 ft/lbs of energy for example. Physics is physics and you can't make more energy by a bullet design. The energy delivered to the target can be used in several ways. But remember after the bullet impacts the target ft/lbs is MEANINGLESS. Momentum is key at that point.

Momentum determines how the bullet will act when traveling through a body. Momentum is Mass times Velocity. At this point mass is equally important as velocity. So since with all normally daily carried for self defense handguns delivering about the same energy the bullet that has the most mass and can penetrate the deepest is the best choice.

Rifle rounds expand and create a stretch cavity damage. Handgun rounds don't.

However if you watch the video I posted above the doctor will do a MUCH better job than I'm doing in explaining it. It takes him as I said 1/2 hour. I can't sum it up effectively in a paragraph or two.

Dave

Wasn't asking for a summary of the video -- I saw it long before you posted the link (and thus presumably before you were aware of it . And I have attended wound ballistics workshops presented by "Doc Gun" at Rangemaster.

You're right about the importance of penetration. But I'd surely include expansion, since virtually all of the "brand name" loads in the common carry calibers (9, 40 & 45) will meet the FBI penetration requirement. "Knock-down power" is non-existent for these calibers, but all are well "north" of the 200 ft. lb range.

You sound like you understand that the .32 and .380 HP loads probably won't don't have the ability to reliably penetrate the typical human body to a sufficient depth. Unfortunately, the OP still seems to be in Condition Brown -- so comparing the .32 with the .380, while interesting, probably serves to distract from the message of "carry a more efficient caliber."

 

[Cat]

IIRC, Miss Hupps main problem was that she left her gun in the car b/c she didn't have legal authority to carry it in Lubys ?? So any gun would have been better than no gun. But again IIRC, she had a .40 in the car.

It is really time for more people to carry more often and be better prepared to carry. Training may be the single most important rule after " have a gun "

Yes, my point was: Dave said he doesn't frequent places where thugs go. Neither did Miss Hupps at that particular time. IOW: It can happen anywhere.

 

[dwr461]

Wasn't asking for a summary of the video -- I saw it long before you posted the link (and thus presumably before you were aware of it . And I have attended wound ballistics workshops presented by "Doc Gun" at Rangemaster.

You're right about the importance of penetration. But I'd surely include expansion, since virtually all of the "brand name" loads in the common carry calibers (9, 40 & 45) will meet the FBI penetration requirement. "Knock-down power" is non-existent for these calibers, but all are well "north" of the 200 ft. lb range.

You sound like you understand that the .32 and .380 HP loads probably won't don't have the ability to reliably penetrate the typical human body to a sufficient depth. Unfortunately, the OP still seems to be in Condition Brown -- so comparing the .32 with the .380, while interesting, probably serves to distract from the message of "carry a more efficient caliber."

In 32 acp I would NEVER consider carrying HP's. I carry hard cast lead +P Loads from Buffalo Bore. They have ballistics from the Keltec P32 that I carry sometimes that show that their load is driving the 75 grain bullet at 910 fps. They might have enough butt to get to some place effective.

Dave

 

[JCcypress]

i carry my lcr 22 as a "backup/get off me" gun, not a job for an auto loader imo. it replaced my nna revolver. cheap to practice and i practice A LOT. head shots are no problem. don't think its possible to miss body shots even in a panic shoot.

not practical but i can hit a human head size target at 70 yards with that little gun. i have almost 3,000 rounds of federal bulk through it. no problems. no beer can lasted more than a second in front the camp. can't wait to see the wounds on gators.

This confuses me. You're carrying a .38 sized pistol, chambered in 22LR? Why not just carry a .38?

 

[dfsutton]

You're the second one that tells me I should question my use of the word, "study"! Maybe I should have read the damn thing before posting it.

Seriously? You post stuff without having read it? That's a whole new level...

 

[Gus McCrae]

Exactly. It was meant as a comparator medium only.

Which is why:

12" of gel = enough bad guy under most conditions.

At least that's my understanding of it.