LA Legislature will see bill seeking to clarify Conceal Carry in restaurants.

[dzelenka]

The confusion is caused by 1379.3 M which states:

M. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by state or federal law.

All ABOs are locations in which firearms are banned by state law. Because of this provision, some LEOs are saying that section N doesn't grant the right to carry in an ABO (which it doesn't) The language is problematic and needs clarification.

Dan

 

[rocketsteve]

The confusion is caused by 1379.3 M which states:

M. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by state or federal law.

All ABOs are locations in which firearms are banned by state law. Because of this provision, some LEOs are saying that section N doesn't grant the right to carry in an ABO (which it doesn't) The language is problematic and needs clarification.

Dan

You are correct in the above statement. This is where your argument falls apart:



Louisiana Criminal Code:

RS 14:95.4

§95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet

D. An "Alcoholic Beverage Outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a MAJORITY of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.

***Majority (as defined by Merriam-Webster dictionary): 3a : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/majority



If you walk into a restaurant and you see or you can bring minor children in with you, according to the current law, you are inside a Class-A Restaurant establishment. Since RS 40:1379.3(N)(10) only restricts CC in Class-A General establishments, according to the letter of the law, you are legal to CC in Chili's, Outback Steakhouse, Olive Garden, etc.



The law is not the problem, as it clearly states where you are NOT permitted to CC. The problem is with the Louisiana AG who, on his own, decided to change the law, so that CC is not permitted in ANY establishment that serves alcohol. The AG's change is NOT the law that the Louisiana State Legislature passed and that the Governor signed. The job of the Louisiana AG is to uphold the laws of this state; not change them to suit his own personal beliefs or political aspirations.

 

[charlie12]

You are correct in the above statement. This is where your argument falls apart:



Louisiana Criminal Code:

RS 14:95.4

§95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet

D. An "Alcoholic Beverage Outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a MAJORITY of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.

***Majority (as defined by Merriam-Webster dictionary): 3a : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/majority



If you walk into a restaurant and you see or you can bring minor children in with you, according to the current law, you are inside a Class-A Restaurant establishment. Since RS 40:1379.3(N)(10) only restricts CC in Class-A General establishments, according to the letter of the law, you are legal to CC in Chili's, Outback Steakhouse, Olive Garden, etc.



The law is not the problem, as it clearly states where you are NOT permitted to CC. The problem is with the Louisiana AG who, on his own, decided to change the law, so that CC is not permitted in ANY establishment that serves alcohol. The AG's change is NOT the law that the Louisiana State Legislature passed and that the Governor signed. The job of the Louisiana AG is to uphold the laws of this state; not change them to suit his own personal beliefs or political aspirations.

That's what I think about the AG and what he thinks

 

[met7881]

I got into a disagreement with a reporter who covers these bills. She is posting that HB72 will allow off duty law enforcement to carry in any ABO. Both Class A -Restaurant and Class A-General. The way I understand HB72 is that off duty cannot carry in Class A-General. If fact that was mentioned during the committee hearing on this bill. What's the deal on this?

 

[mpl006]

You are correct in the above statement. This is where your argument falls apart:



Louisiana Criminal Code:

RS 14:95.4

§95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet

D. An "Alcoholic Beverage Outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a MAJORITY of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.

***Majority (as defined by Merriam-Webster dictionary): 3a : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/majority



If you walk into a restaurant and you see or you can bring minor children in with you, according to the current law, you are inside a Class-A Restaurant establishment. Since RS 40:1379.3(N)(10) only restricts CC in Class-A General establishments, according to the letter of the law, you are legal to CC in Chili's, Outback Steakhouse, Olive Garden, etc.



The law is not the problem, as it clearly states where you are NOT permitted to CC. The problem is with the Louisiana AG who, on his own, decided to change the law, so that CC is not permitted in ANY establishment that serves alcohol. The AG's change is NOT the law that the Louisiana State Legislature passed and that the Governor signed. The job of the Louisiana AG is to uphold the laws of this state; not change them to suit his own personal beliefs or political aspirations.

The problem isn't in 14:95.4 which has a definition for ABO, it is in 14:95.5 combined with RS 40:1379.3 (M):

§95.5. Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet

A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.

B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

C. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to the owner or lessee of an alcoholic beverage outlet, or to an employee of such owner or lessee, or to a law enforcement officer or other person vested with law enforcement authority acting in the performance of his official duties.

D. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

Acts 1985, No. 765, §1.

I don't think you can take the definition from one section, 14:95.4 and apply it carte blanche to other sections, like 14:95.5.

Now don't misunderstand that I think this is what should be the case. In fact, I think the presence of RS 40:1379.3 (N)(10) shows the legislatures intent and should be enough to keep you out of jail. I personally think they should add a provision under section C like they have in 14:95.2 that basically says if you have a CHP, look at 40:1379.3. That way the regulations surrounding CHPs and ABOs will be in one place and not have to look all over to find out if you can legally have a peanut with your supper (Logan's or any other restaurant with peanuts on the table) with you gun under you shirt.

 

[dzelenka]

I got into a disagreement with a reporter who covers these bills. She is posting that HB72 will allow off duty law enforcement to carry in any ABO. Both Class A -Restaurant and Class A-General. The way I understand HB72 is that off duty cannot carry in Class A-General. If fact that was mentioned during the committee hearing on this bill. What's the deal on this?

Re-read the bill. She is correct.

 

[dzelenka]

You are correct in the above statement. This is where your argument falls apart:



Louisiana Criminal Code:

RS 14:95.4

§95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet

D. An "Alcoholic Beverage Outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a MAJORITY of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages.

***Majority (as defined by Merriam-Webster dictionary): 3a : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/majority



If you walk into a restaurant and you see or you can bring minor children in with you, according to the current law, you are inside a Class-A Restaurant establishment. Since RS 40:1379.3(N)(10) only restricts CC in Class-A General establishments, according to the letter of the law, you are legal to CC in Chili's, Outback Steakhouse, Olive Garden, etc.



The law is not the problem, as it clearly states where you are NOT permitted to CC. The problem is with the Louisiana AG who, on his own, decided to change the law, so that CC is not permitted in ANY establishment that serves alcohol. The AG's change is NOT the law that the Louisiana State Legislature passed and that the Governor signed. The job of the Louisiana AG is to uphold the laws of this state; not change them to suit his own personal beliefs or political aspirations.

Mpl006 is correct. You cannot use the definition in 95.4 to define abo in 95.5.

Saying that ABOs are off limits because 14:95.5's prohibition creates a prohibited location under 1379.3(M) is a tortured reading of the CHP statute but it may be sufficient for an antigun DA to make a case. It is best to clarify it once and for all.

Also, the attorney general has not rendered an opinion concerning CHPs carrying in ABOs. His opinion only addressed off duty law enforcement officers carrying in ABOs.

 

[Robhic]

The problem is with the Louisiana AG who, on his own, decided to change the law, so that CC is not permitted in ANY establishment that serves alcohol. The AG's change is NOT the law that the Louisiana State Legislature passed and that the Governor signed. The job of the Louisiana AG is to uphold the laws of this state; not change them to suit his own personal beliefs or political aspirations.

Boy, that sure sounds like some other guy named, uh, barack something or other. Supposed to uphold the existing laws but sure likes to make up his own to fit his OWN wants and (political) needs. Our political critters are really getting high-handed these days. Like the Founding Fathers were just a bunch of old nothings and our Constitution is for decoration.

I have made a copy of the relevant parts of LA law applying to CC in restaurants and keep it in my glove compartment. In case I unwittingly get found "flat-footed" (so-to-speak) in a Chili's, etc. I don't drink nor do I go to eateries that are bars that serve some food but exclusively food outlets where you might buy a beer or some wine (but I do NOT!).

 

[charlie12]

Also, the attorney general has not rendered an opinion concerning CHPs carrying in ABOs. His opinion only addressed off duty law enforcement officers carrying in ABOs.

That's what I though, the AG was talking about off duty LEO's not CHP holders

 

[mpl006]

I was curious about that too. After reading the opinion, I just assumed the someone smarter in law speak had read it and found a correlation. I did see on another thread that the AG was asked by one of the legislators for an opinion with regard to CHP holders and the CHP law but didn't see if there had been an opinion rendered yet.


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[CCW]

According to email corresponence I had with the LSP Concealed Handgun Unit, the LSP interprets AG Opinion 13-0109 to also apply to CHP holders. If anyone has any other interpretatiom from the LSP, please share it with us.

 

[AustinBR]

According to email corresponence I had with the LSP Concealed Handgun Unit, the LSP interprets AG Opinion 13-0109 to also apply to CHP holders. If anyone has any other interpretatiom from the LSP, please share it with us.

Can you share said correspondence please?

 

[dzelenka]

According to email corresponence I had with the LSP Concealed Handgun Unit, the LSP interprets AG Opinion 13-0109 to also apply to CHP holders. If anyone has any other interpretatiom from the LSP, please share it with us.

I'd like to see that email too. Reading all of the statutes together, CHP holders have a better case for carrying in a class A Restaurant ABO than do off duty officers. The prohibition against the officers doing so is explicit and clear. The AG was correct in that analysis. The AG didn't address 1379.3, and 13-0109 doesn't apply to CHP holders LSP interpretation notwithstanding. The LSP has more support for prohibiting restaurant carry if it just relies on 14:95.5 and 1379.3M.

 

[dzelenka]

HB 72 will be considered on the House floor on Wednesday, April 9. Please contact your state Representative and respectfully urge him or her to support HB 72.

Contact information for your state Representative can be found at http://house.louisiana.gov/H_Reps/H_Reps_ByName.asp

The identity of your state Representative can be found at http://www.legis.la.gov/legis/FindMyLegislators.aspx

 

[rocketsteve]

Since the dumb-assed politicians and lawyers, in BR, can't seem to figure out how to write common sense legislation, I thought I'd give them a helping hand...


ABO Definitions:

An Alcohol Beverage Outlet (ABO) shall be defined as any establishment that sells alcohol products, to be consumed on the premises, and where the sales of those alcohol products equals or exceeds 50% of the total gross sales receipts for any given calendar month.

An establishment shall not be defined as an Alcohol Beverage Outlet (ABO) if the establishment sells alcohol products, to be consumed on the premises, and the sales of those alcohol products does not equal or exceed 50% of the total gross sales receipts for any given calendar month.


LEO Carry:

All sworn law enforcement officers shall be given the option and the authority to carry a concealed firearm into any establishment that sells alcohol for consumption on the premises. This provision shall cover any sworn law enforcement officer who is on-duty or off-duty.


Concealed Carry:

With the exception of sworn law enforcement officers, all others are banned from carrying a concealed firearm into any Alcohol Beverage Outlet (ABO).

 

[CCW]

For what it's worth, below is the email thread that I sent to and received from the LSP Concealed Handgun Permit Unit concerning whether or not AG Opinion 13-0109 applies to concealed handgun permittees.

From: Wyndie.Chifici@dps.la.gov [mailto:Wyndie.Chifici@dps.la.gov] On Behalf Of concealed.handguns@dps.state.la.us
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 1:06 PM
To: XXXXXXXXXX
Subject: Re: Louisiana Attorney General Opinion-13-0109

Yes it does apply to concealed permittees.


08/19/2013 04:36 PM To <concealed.handguns@dps.state.la.us>

cc
Subject Louisiana Attorney General Opinion-13-0109






Dear Sergeant King,

Does the recent Louisiana Attorney General Opinon 13-0109 apply to holders of a Concealed Handgun Permit issued under R.S. 40:1379.3? The opinion states that no one, other than the owner, an employee or a Law Enforcement Official in the performance of his official duties, may carry a firearm into an "Alcohol Beverage Outlet". There is no reference in the opinion to R.S. 40:1379.3

It has always been my understanding that one of the prohibited locations not covered by the Concealed Handgun Permit is as follows:

40: 1379.3.N(10) Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.

According to R.S. 26: 71.1(d): A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to an establishment where the state law provides that no person under the age of eighteen years is allowed on the premises except as provided in R.S. 26:90(A)(8)(a).

I am under the impression that it is legal for a Concealed Carry Permit holder to carry a concealed weapon in an establishment that does not hold a Class A-General Retail Permit, such as a restaurant that holds a Class A-Restaurant Permit. This permit allows for the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises. I do understand that a permit holder's blood alcohol content cannot be equal to or greater than .05% while excercising the priviledges of a Concealed Handgun Permit.

Thank you for your time in this matter.

XXXXXXXXXXX

 

[dzelenka]

Since the dumb-assed politicians and lawyers, in BR, can't seem to figure out how to write common sense legislation, I thought I'd give them a helping hand...


ABO Definitions:

An Alcohol Beverage Outlet (ABO) shall be defined as any establishment that sells alcohol products, to be consumed on the premises, and where the sales of those alcohol products equals or exceeds 50% of the total gross sales receipts for any given calendar month.

An establishment shall not be defined as an Alcohol Beverage Outlet (ABO) if the establishment sells alcohol products, to be consumed on the premises, and the sales of those alcohol products does not equal or exceed 50% of the total gross sales receipts for any given calendar month.


LEO Carry:

All sworn law enforcement officers shall be given the option and the authority to carry a concealed firearm into any establishment that sells alcohol for consumption on the premises. This provision shall cover any sworn law enforcement officer who is on-duty or off-duty.


Concealed Carry:

With the exception of sworn law enforcement officers, all others are banned from carrying a concealed firearm into any Alcohol Beverage Outlet (ABO).

Nice try but your definition would be problematic for CHP holders. How would one tell if the establishment derived more or less than 50% of its revenues from alcohol sales?

A more precise way would be to prohibit carry in the following:

Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.

Or conversely allow carry in:

Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-Restaurant retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.

That way it is easy for the CHP holder and police to know where carrying is allowed and where it is not.

 

[mpl006]

I also don't like the 51% rule. While in Dallas two years ago for our anniversary, my wife and I walked to TGIFridays from the hotel and when we arrived, they had the 51% sign so I had to decide if I wanted to break the law feed my wife or walk back to the hotel and then come back unarmed, at night in downtown Dallas.


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[charlie12]

I also don't like the 51% rule. While in Dallas two years ago for our anniversary, my wife and I walked to TGIFridays from the hotel and when we arrived, they had the 51% sign so I had to decide if I wanted to break the law feed my wife or walk back to the hotel and then come back unarmed, at night in downtown Dallas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did they have a 51% sign or a 30.06 sign? I'm not up on TX

 

[mpl006]

Did they have a 51% sign or a 30.06 sign? I'm not up on TX

They had the 51% sign there. I did notice a few 30.06 signs as we were out and about that weekend though.