LEO now carries 145 rounds on duty.

[BenCarp27]

It's very possible that a subject can survive multiple wounds to vital areas. For those who have difficulty believing, or understanding this, think about the deer that have been tracked over several hundred yards after receiving a much more effective rifle round through the vitals.
It may not be the norm, but a committed, motivated individual is capable of many things.
The moral of the story being discussed isn't that center mass shots are pointless, or that you train to "shoot for the head".
The moral is every situation is different, and you never know when you'll encounter the 1% nightmare situation, so don't be complacent, ensure you have adequate supplies of equipment at you disposal, and be ready for the long haul. Gunfights start when you unholster and pull the trigger, not end.
Many people carry concealed with only a single mag in the well. Many officers patrol with the standard two extra mags. I think the point the officer was trying to make is that you can't assume your rounds will have the desired effect, and you can't assume the psychological affect wounding will deter all assailants.
Keep aiming center of mass, keep putting rounds on target, and be prepared to do so for an indefinite amount of time. The fight is over if/when one party is incapacitated.

 

[doc ace]

man i doubted it. 14 hits, 6 vital, and hes still shooting back? absolutely incredible.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=a2e40949d041" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

An animal half the size of a human being taking as many rounds, and he's not even shooting back at the hunter. It takes a few minutes to bleed out man, and for your lungs to collapse, and yes you can still run on a broken leg. Pretty much the only thing that will immediately incapacitate is a shot to brain/spine.

If I dare start quoting law stuff you can correct me, don't think for a second that some of these cats on here haven't sent lead down range and had it thrown back to us.

Also, watching a Black Hawk Down marathon and talking to a doctor in Kuwait don't make you subject matter experts either.

 

[madwabbit]

It's very possible that a subject can survive multiple wounds to vital areas. For those who have difficulty believing, or understanding this, think about the deer that have been tracked over several hundred yards after receiving a much more effective rifle round through the vitals.
It may not be the norm, but a committed, motivated individual is capable of many things.
The moral of the story being discussed isn't that center mass shots are pointless, or that you train to "shoot for the head".
The moral is every situation is different, and you never know when you'll encounter the 1% nightmare situation, so don't be complacent, ensure you have adequate supplies of equipment at you disposal, and be ready for the long haul. Gunfights start when you unholster and pull the trigger, not end.
Many people carry concealed with only a single mag in the well. Many officers patrol with the standard two extra mags. I think the point the officer was trying to make is that you can't assume your rounds will have the desired effect, and you can't assume the psychological affect wounding will deter all assailants.
Keep aiming center of mass, keep putting rounds on target, and be prepared to do so for an indefinite amount of time. The fight is over if/when one party is incapacitated.

good post. this story does have me reconsidering extra mags for ccw, which i previously dismissed as unnecessary.

 

[madwabbit]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=a2e40949d041" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

An animal half the size of a human being taking as many rounds, and he's not even shooting back at the hunter. It takes a few minutes to bleed out man, and for your lungs to collapse, and yes you can still run on a broken leg. Pretty much the only thing that will immediately incapacitate is a shot to brain/spine.

If I dare start quoting law stuff you can correct me, don't think for a second that some of these cats on here haven't sent lead down range and had it thrown back to us.

Also, watching a Black Hawk Down marathon and talking to a doctor in Kuwait don't make you subject matter experts either.

lol no doubt. the doctor is a retired surgeon in lafayette. the civi gs-8 in kuwait was my 5-hours of "geographical education"

I think I'd rather have the 76-year old surgeon with me in just about any situation, personally. To those of you that contribute real knowledge and valuable information, I meant no disrespect.

perhaps this would be more suitable in another thread, but i'm strongly re-evaluating the effectiveness of my home sd options, as well as the extra mags for ccw.

 

[bjeepin2]

true or not i knew a man at the age of 17 that jumped on two grenades only one went off layed on the beach till someone notiest he was still breathing and went on living with over 200 pieces of metal in him and died at the age of 80. and this was in the 1940s. the body can do all kinds of things.

 

[MOTOR51]

There was a similar situation that happened in Baton Rouge many years ago the involved the death of a rookie female officer. The surviving officer will tell you that a determined human can do super human things.

MOTOR 51

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=a2e40949d041" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

An animal half the size of a human being taking as many rounds, and he's not even shooting back at the hunter. It takes a few minutes to bleed out man, and for your lungs to collapse, and yes you can still run on a broken leg. Pretty much the only thing that will immediately incapacitate is a shot to brain/spine.

If I dare start quoting law stuff you can correct me, don't think for a second that some of these cats on here haven't sent lead down range and had it thrown back to us.

Also, watching a Black Hawk Down marathon and talking to a doctor in Kuwait don't make you subject matter experts either.

Doc stole the deer thing from me...just sayin:-)

 

[ejt1469]

Originally Posted by Leadfoothttp://www.comp-tac.com/product_info...roducts_id=135
I've actually had nothing but HORRIBLE experience with the one I had from them.

If you get it, do NOT use the clips they have sohwn in that pic, and get something that will stay on the belt better. Also, the extra leather will need trimmed, or it'll start to curl over the top of the mag and obstruct the mag draw.

http://www.sneakypeteholsters.com/springfield-magazine-holsters/

These might work better for you.

 

[SVT]

http://www.sneakypeteholsters.com/springfield-magazine-holsters/

These might work better for you.

wow very cool idea

 

[SpeedRacer]

http://www.sneakypeteholsters.com/springfield-magazine-holsters/

These might work better for you.

That's a horrible design. Chances are you'll be trying to shove the whole thing in your gun, leather cover and all. Bad, bad, bad.

 

[Leadfoot]

That's a horrible design. Chances are you'll be trying to shove the whole thing in your gun, leather cover and all. Bad, bad, bad.

I agree. How someone could really have trouble with the Comp-tac design is really hard to imagine, but like everything else, I suppose someone, somewhere....

If the flap covers too much, trim it... it's freaking leather.

 

[kcinnick]

http://www.sneakypeteholsters.com/springfield-magazine-holsters/

These might work better for you.

I just stick a mag in my pocket... Don't see why you need a cover.

 

[SpeedRacer]

I agree. How someone could really have trouble with the Comp-tac design is really hard to imagine, but like everything else, I suppose someone, somewhere....

If the flap covers too much, trim it... it's freaking leather.

The concerns with Comptac and similar holsters are warranted, however they seem to primarily affect larger guys with some lovehandle action going on. For the pistol holsters it's worth considering, for the mag holders I agree just trim it down if it's a problem.

Personally I can't comfortably do a pistol AND mag pouch IWB, but there's a million options for carrying a spare mag OWB. Two spares on the belt is pishing it for my scrawny ass, so I typically carry one OWB and one loose in a cargo pocket. Less than ideal but it's what works for me.

 

[Danny Abear]

Hard to believe that someone hasn't said if he had a 10mm glock and bullets loaded on a dillon 550, the perp would have died when the first bullet passed BY him.

 

[Leadfoot]

Hard to believe that someone hasn't said if he had a 10mm glock and bullets loaded on a dillon 550, the perp would have died when the first bullet passed BY him.

Well duh.. Everyone knows that.

 

[Hitman]

true or not i knew a man at the age of 17 that jumped on two grenades only one went off layed on the beach till someone notiest he was still breathing and went on living with over 200 pieces of metal in him and died at the age of 80. and this was in the 1940s. the body can do all kinds of things.

Hear Hear!

I'm always reminded of Dale Earnhardt. He seemingly takes a nudge as compared to some of the cars these days that are shredded to pieces while flying through the air on fire. Dale E. dies, others unbuckle their straps and walk away from the frame that was their race car. huh?

Might be more there than just the Human Element too. Although some would scoff.

Either way, I too am fascinated by the Human Body and its ability to do the most amazing things known to man. The Discovery and History Channel has some documentaries on the Human Body that utterly blow my mind.

One thing is certain when it comes to the Human Body. When we are under duress and the stakes seem to be unreachably high. When our mind has made the choice of ‘fight’ not ‘flight’ and thus turns on that switch. Our body is like a V8 Engine running @ 20,000 RPM’s. Youtube that! Lol

At that point, when we are all systems go, you can take all that should/coulda/woulda statistics, and throw that **** right out the window. Something spectacular is about to happen.

Unfortunately, sometimes as is the case here, someone may use this incredible ability to do harm. Even some narcotics tap into this resource we have and thus put others and our LEO’s harm’s way. All here has seen that before I’m sure.

I think that’s what Officer Gramins witnessed and somewhat experienced himself. The BG here was clearly running on all cylinders at max capacity. I wonder just how much longer he could have lasted. After all, no amount of adrenaline can overcome ‘Exangination’? (How about that Doc?) lol Yea it’s a big word, I heard it a long time ago. It think reading the FBI Ballistics Testing something or another? Basically it’s the process of bleeding to death. You don’t have to lose all your blood to suffer the fate of bleeding to death. I’ve heard Nate mention something similar when talking about Pistol Caliber saying, ‘blood loss/pressure’ is the real killer. But as we see here, in the time it takes that blood loss to happen, who knows what’s possible.

 

[JNieman]

The concerns with Comptac and similar holsters are warranted, however they seem to primarily affect larger guys with some lovehandle action going on. For the pistol holsters it's worth considering, for the mag holders I agree just trim it down if it's a problem.

Personally I can't comfortably do a pistol AND mag pouch IWB, but there's a million options for carrying a spare mag OWB. Two spares on the belt is pishing it for my scrawny ass, so I typically carry one OWB and one loose in a cargo pocket. Less than ideal but it's what works for me.

My only deal-breaker problems with the Comp Tac mag holder existed when I was 220lbs as much as it did back when I was 300lbs. Yes you can trim leather, I never attempted to mention it as a deal breaker, just a 'btw'.

When I pull out the magazine, only the magazine should come out. Way too often the whole ****ing thing comes up right out of my belt. Happened during range practice against a clock, and happened so much during a Tom Givens class that I tore the ****ing mag holder off the magazine, chucked it across the range, and went to doing pocket draw or shoving the mag inside my belt, bare, to finish the day. That's why I suggested using different clips than shown in the picture, that don't allow this to happen. If you do like the mag holder itself, that's enough of a fix, I figure. I absolutely love the MTAC/Minotaur holster they make, though. Mine's worn and stained and very comfortable.

But the mag holder... other than the draw problems, I didn't like the thing. I prefer pocket draw to under-shirt draw for concealed carry. Less manipulation needed.

 

[SpeedRacer]

My only deal-breaker problems with the Comp Tac mag holder existed when I was 220lbs as much as it did back when I was 300lbs. Yes you can trim leather, I never attempted to mention it as a deal breaker, just a 'btw'.

When I pull out the magazine, only the magazine should come out. Way too often the whole ****ing thing comes up right out of my belt. Happened during range practice against a clock, and happened so much during a Tom Givens class that I tore the ****ing mag holder off the magazine, chucked it across the range, and went to doing pocket draw or shoving the mag inside my belt, bare, to finish the day. That's why I suggested using different clips than shown in the picture, that don't allow this to happen. If you do like the mag holder itself, that's enough of a fix, I figure. I absolutely love the MTAC/Minotaur holster they make, though. Mine's worn and stained and very comfortable.

But the mag holder... other than the draw problems, I didn't like the thing. I prefer pocket draw to under-shirt draw for concealed carry. Less manipulation needed.

I assume you're talking about their standard belt clip, in which case I absolutely see where you're coming from. I use their C-clips and have been for so long I forgot those crappy standard clips even exist.

 

[JNieman]

Bingo. Their standard clips never bothered me with holsters though. However, ever since the mag holder incident, I don't order those standard over-the-belt clips from anyone. Even my holster from Raven, I ensured I got some C-clips added to the order.

 

[Gus McCrae]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=a2e40949d041" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

An animal half the size of a human being taking as many rounds, and he's not even shooting back at the hunter. It takes a few minutes to bleed out man, and for your lungs to collapse, and yes you can still run on a broken leg. Pretty much the only thing that will immediately incapacitate is a shot to brain/spine.

If I dare start quoting law stuff you can correct me, don't think for a second that some of these cats on here haven't sent lead down range and had it thrown back to us.

Also, watching a Black Hawk Down marathon and talking to a doctor in Kuwait don't make you subject matter experts either.

I've seen a 120lb doe run 100 yards after taking a .308 Winchester through the heart.

I've had another 117lb doe run 75 yards after taking a .45-70 Government through the lungs. I heard this one expire after several minutes.

Some fall where they are, some don't.