Will They ever learn?

[323MAR]

I can't agree that his fears for retaliation for initial noncompliance were justified. He wasn't maced for his initial noncompliance. He was maced for his continued noncompliance. Had he stepped out on his own, I suspect he would have likely been brought to the ground and handcuffed. But it's unfair to say the cop's reaction to his current and ongoing noncompliance is evidence of what the cop will do in retaliation for the initial noncompliance.

Just so we are on the same page, at what time in the video was it established the LT was not a threat?

The LT may not react well to threats. After all, he sure doesn't react well to authority.

I think they knew the LT was not a threat once they got close, with their service pistols still pointed at him, and saw that he was alone, attired in an authentic service utilities uniform, no weapons in plain view, and his hands were still outside the window. At that point, I think the Sarge should have breathed a sigh of relief, calmed down, and then permitted the LT to do the same. Instead, the Sarge continued his adversarial disposition as if he was dealing with a career criminal. The LT obviously did not feel comfortable getting out as the perceived hostility of the officers continued.

There are times when a jaded gunfighter attitude can backfire when LE deals with the non-criminal element. I am not intimidated by LE pointing firearms at me and really don’t care during a stop, but most people don’t see it that way.

 

[MOTOR51]

I think they knew the LT was not a threat once they got close, with their service pistols still pointed at him, and saw that he was alone, attired in an authentic service utilities uniform, no weapons in plain view, and his hands were still outside the window. At that point, I think the Sarge should have breathed a sigh of relief, calmed down, and then permitted the LT to do the same. Instead, the Sarge continued his adversarial disposition as if he was dealing with a career criminal. The LT obviously did not feel comfortable getting out as the perceived hostility of the officers continued.

There are times when a jaded gunfighter attitude can backfire when LE deals with the non-criminal element. I am not intimidated by LE pointing firearms at me and really don’t care during a stop, but most people don’t see it that way.

The LT was not getting out of the vehicle no matter how they talked to him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[BluewaterLa]

Not sure about everyone else though I know my parents and school teachers always taught me to respect law enforcement officers and instilled love of country including its service members.
What ever happened to that thought pattern ?
Comply with orders and have a good / better outcome OR be a douche canoe and bring crap down upon yourself... Hmm which one should we choose here ??
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

I agree that if something done is not kosher during a stop or interaction with any law enforcement, comply and take your grievance to a court room to let a judge decide.

 

[AustinBR]

The LT was not getting out of the vehicle no matter how they talked to him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

bUt hIs rIgHts

Seriously, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I've only asked to step out of my vehicle once and it was so the cop could show me that my brake light had quite literally fallen out of my old SUV and was hanging by the cord. He also wanted me to watch as he put it back in before he gave me a fist bump and said to drive safe. My rights were totally abused.

 

[thperez1972]

I think they knew the LT was not a threat once they got close, with their service pistols still pointed at him, and saw that he was alone, attired in an authentic service utilities uniform, no weapons in plain view, and his hands were still outside the window. At that point, I think the Sarge should have breathed a sigh of relief, calmed down, and then permitted the LT to do the same. Instead, the Sarge continued his adversarial disposition as if he was dealing with a career criminal. The LT obviously did not feel comfortable getting out as the perceived hostility of the officers continued.

There are times when a jaded gunfighter attitude can backfire when LE deals with the non-criminal element. I am not intimidated by LE pointing firearms at me and really don’t care during a stop, but most people don’t see it that way.

You can say he wasn't a threat because you know the end of the story. He was alone, attired in an authentic service utilities uniform, no weapons on the dashboard that the officers could see, his hands were still outside the window, yet he continued to be non-compliant. Is it unreasonable that someone might not yet see him as a non-threat?

 

[JBP55]

Not sure about everyone else though I know my parents and school teachers always taught me to respect law enforcement officers and instilled love of country including its service members.
What ever happened to that thought pattern ?
Comply with orders and have a good / better outcome OR be a douche canoe and bring crap down upon yourself... Hmm which one should we choose here ??
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

I agree that if something done is not kosher during a stop or interaction with any law enforcement, comply and take your grievance to a court room to let a judge decide.

This.

 

[323MAR]

You can say he wasn't a threat because you know the end of the story. He was alone, attired in an authentic service utilities uniform, no weapons on the dashboard that the officers could see, his hands were still outside the window, yet he continued to be non-compliant. Is it unreasonable that someone might not yet see him as a non-threat?

He did absolutely nothing but stay in his vehicle with his hands on the door. That is 100% factual and backed up by the footage. The DA is going to kick this one back.

Was it really such a sin for the LT to want to remain in his vehicle?
Was it really important for the Sarge to show that arrogant LT who’s boss?

 

[thperez1972]

He did absolutely nothing but stay in his vehicle with his hands on the door. That is 100% factual and backed up by the footage. The DA is going to kick this one back.

Was it really such a sin for the LT to want to remain in his vehicle?
Was it really important for the Sarge to show that arrogant LT who’s boss?

You're proving my point. Despite the lawful order for the driver to exit the vehicle, the driver did absolutely nothing but stay in his vehicle with his hands on the door. His non-compliance is 100% factual and backed up by video. The police wanted to separate the driver from the vehicle and anything that may be in the vehicle that the driver could use to harm others. Information learned after the fact should not be used to determine if an action is reasonable. The only information that should be used is information known or information that should have been known at the time the decision was made. As they approached the driver side door, they saw a uniform. The driver was still an unknown due to the lack of a visible license plate. They still could not see inside the vehicle due to the tint on the windows. Let's look at the video again. At what time in the video was it established the driver was not a threat?

There's nothing wrong with the LT wanting to stay in the video but this isn't about his wants. It's about his actions. And the Sarge wasn't showing the LT who's boss. The Sarge was separating the LT from any unknowns in the vehicle. I'm always surprised when people feel the subject of a police investigation should be the one deciding how that investigation is conducted.

 

[Magdump]

Governor ordered the State Police to investigate.
Oh my..

https://youtu.be/IC6fGJt22As

 

[Magdump]

Oh man, this is getting good. Those cops are gonna be famous.

https://youtu.be/u21YnFeQAJY

 

[323MAR]

You're proving my point. Despite the lawful order for the driver to exit the vehicle, the driver did absolutely nothing but stay in his vehicle with his hands on the door. His non-compliance is 100% factual and backed up by video. The police wanted to separate the driver from the vehicle and anything that may be in the vehicle that the driver could use to harm others. Information learned after the fact should not be used to determine if an action is reasonable. The only information that should be used is information known or information that should have been known at the time the decision was made. As they approached the driver side door, they saw a uniform. The driver was still an unknown due to the lack of a visible license plate. They still could not see inside the vehicle due to the tint on the windows. Let's look at the video again. At what time in the video was it established the driver was not a threat?

There's nothing wrong with the LT wanting to stay in the video but this isn't about his wants. It's about his actions. And the Sarge wasn't showing the LT who's boss. The Sarge was separating the LT from any unknowns in the vehicle. I'm always surprised when people feel the subject of a police investigation should be the one deciding how that investigation is conducted.

Police discretion exists for very good reasons. if you treat EVERYONE like crap, then you will eventually get that crap all over yourself. The LT was not acting in an aggressor manner, but the officers were acting aggressively for the entire time and even assaulted him! That is the problem here.

Do you really think the DA is going to entertain criminal charges here? It’s going to be kicked back!
Why was the Sarge fired if his actions were justified?

I don’t agree with firing him. I think he should have been suspended at worst.

 

[Emperor]

I'm always surprised when people feel the subject of a police investigation should be the one deciding how that investigation is conducted.

Me too! What the F happened in this screwed up country to make this the new thing?

 

[323MAR]

Me too! What the F happened in this screwed up country to make this the new thing?

Those tactics work well when you are working 6th District Taskforce(Latoya disbanded it), but are too aggressive for routine traffic stops. It was not a legitimate felony stop. The purchase of a new tinted SUV with temp tag in the rear window is not a crime.
The vehicle was not on any probable cause list.
Did Barney Fife order that investigation?

 

[Emperor]

Those tactics work well when you are working 6th District Taskforce(Latoya disbanded it), but are too aggressive for routine traffic stops. It was not a legitimate felony stop. The purchase of a new tinted SUV with temp tag in the rear window is not a crime.
The vehicle was not on any probable cause list.
Did Barney Fife order that investigation?

I think you misconstrued the actual point.

I took it to mean; that all of a sudden in the last few years, some people seem to believe that a detainee has the Right to decide how a detention or pull-over from LE is to be handled. I truly believe that society would be better served if there was an all out effort to educate people on how to act during traffic stops or simple detentions. Particularly in the black communities! But, that might eliminate the need to defame and belittle the police! We can't have that! Ugh!

It seems obvious that young adults are less courteous (which can and sometimes does, ultimately lead to confrontation), to police nowadays. I believe much of that is being perpetuated in the home by either ignorant, belligerent, derelict, or absentee parents; or other idiots!

Bless you guys in law enforcement! Were I a cop, every f**khead I encountered that made me feel uncomfortable by not complying with my directions would be treated as possible criminal!

 

[Old School]

It would seem that him being military would be even more important that he should follow directions given to him. I wonder how he would treat his subordinates if they failed to follow orders. He is a disgrace.

 

[thperez1972]

Police discretion exists for very good reasons. if you treat EVERYONE like crap, then you will eventually get that crap all over yourself. The LT was not acting in an aggressor manner, but the officers were acting aggressively for the entire time and even assaulted him! That is the problem here.

Do you really think the DA is going to entertain criminal charges here? It’s going to be kicked back!
Why was the Sarge fired if his actions were justified?

I don’t agree with firing him. I think he should have been suspended at worst.

When all the vehicles stopped, the cops ordered the LT to exit the vehicle. Was the LT in the right when he refused?

 

[thperez1972]

Those tactics work well when you are working 6th District Taskforce(Latoya disbanded it), but are too aggressive for routine traffic stops. It was not a legitimate felony stop. The purchase of a new tinted SUV with temp tag in the rear window is not a crime.
The vehicle was not on any probable cause list.
Did Barney Fife order that investigation?

What information do you have to back up your claim it was not a legitimate felony stop?

BTW, felony stop describes a procedure. It does not suppose a felony has already been committed. And just about any interaction with the police in their official capacity is an investigation.

 

[323MAR]

What information do you have to back up your claim it was not a legitimate felony stop?

BTW, felony stop describes a procedure. It does not suppose a felony has already been committed. And just about any interaction with the police in their official capacity is an investigation.

I am already aware of that. I do not agree that no visible plate on a new car should trigger a felony stop. It is a moving violation at worst. I will concede that there was a slim possibility of a 67A, but the Sarge said nothing about that to anyone.

 

[323MAR]

When all the vehicles stopped, the cops ordered the LT to exit the vehicle. Was the LT in the right when he refused?

As I told you earlier, I would have existed the vehicle with my hands up and all my documents in the right hand and do push ups and jumping jacks if ordered to! I am a different person(Marine Corps.) Maybe the Army LT(freshly minted butter bar admin?)was too chicken to exit the vehicle after fear set in.
He apparently was not comfortable exiting the vehicle. That was not the correct course of action, but neither was using mace on him. The aggressive posture that included pointing guns at him could have been excused, but did contribute to the 90 day wonders(did not come across as a West Pointer) fears.

 

[thperez1972]

I am already aware of that. I do not agree that no visible plate on a new car should trigger a felony stop. It is a moving violation at worst. I will concede that there was a slim possibility of a 67A, but the Sarge said nothing about that to anyone.

Was that stated as the reason for the felony stop? I'm legitimately asking. I never saw a reason mentioned. Without knowing why they chose to execute a felony stop, I cannot say if it was warranted or not. In a previous post, I gave some opinions as to what could have been factors. But I don't know.

As I told you earlier, I would have existed the vehicle with my hands up and all my documents in the right hand and do push ups and jumping jacks if ordered to! I am a different person(Marine Corps.) Maybe the Army LT(freshly minted butter bar admin?)was too chicken to exit the vehicle after fear set in.
He apparently was not comfortable exiting the vehicle. That was not the correct course of action, but neither was using mace on him. The aggressive posture that included pointing guns at him could have been excused, but did contribute to the 90 day wonders(did not come across as a West Pointer) fears.

The mace came after the LT didn't exit the vehicle. For 2 minutes, the LT continued to take the incorrect course of action. And it wasn't like the LT didn't know he was about to get maced. He acknowledged the pepper spray but wasn't sprayed for another 20 second. During that time, he refused to get out of the car and actively resisted the officer's attempt to open the car door.

The incident as a whole is made up of a number of individual decisions. If any of those decisions had been different, the outcome might have been different as well. Well before the officer used the pepper spray, the LT had the opportunity to take the correct course of action. Even if we view the officer using pepper spray as being a bad decision, it's reasonable to say the LT had the ability to prevent the officer from making that mistake. The LT's continued 2 minute mistake is what put the officer in the position to make his mistake.

BTW, police discretion and treating people like crap are mutually exclusive. You can be as nice as can be without using officer discretion. You can use officer discretion while treating people like crap. The LT was passively resisting for most of the time.

As I'm typing this reply, I looked for more information. The police chief made a few statement about the incident.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgxqen/caron-nazario-windsor-police-chief-wont-apologize

*At the end of the day, I’m glad that nobody got hurt, that the situation ended the best way it could’ve. I wish he would have complied a whole lot earlier.*

*I’m going to own what we did wrong,* Riddle said. *My guys missed opportunities to verbally de-escalate that thing and change that outcome.*

Still, when asked if he thought the department should apologize to Nazario, Riddle said: *I don’t believe so.*

*Lt. Nazario took certain actions that created where we got to,* Riddle said. *And I think that, you know, we’ll let the courts sort that part of it out, and litigate that part.*


The officers treated the traffic stop as a high-risk encounter and drew their weapons because Nazario had allegedly taken a while to pull over, had tinted windows, and lacked a license plate. The cops initially handled the situation well, Riddle said.