Will They ever learn?

[Magdump]

Unfortunately, in this situation, once the video was out it became mob rules and the cop was no doubt fired to appease the mob.
Just from what I’ve seen over the past few years, when there’s an encounter like this and the cops spend any amount of time bothering to explain themselves after the fact (i.e. the reason I kicked your ass and shot you was because... you can’t do that, ok?) things just go to $hit. I can’t think of another reason for them doing it except to have the victim/offender/whatever accept the ass whooping without question in hopes that they won’t pursue any type of retaliation. Problem is, at that point it looks a lot like admission of guilt of having mishandled the situation and that’s what people see. In effect, they apologized to an extent for their incorrect actions, wiping the OC from his face and showing concern after they calmed down. The cop seems to have spent a lot of time doing this. He also went on record saying the Lt should fear him. Couple of weak knee jabs while the guy stood there just added to his demerits with the mob. It’s not like he kept a knee on the guy’s neck for a couple minutes but the mob... All in all, if they’d have just hauled him in as soon as cuffs were applied I’m betting it would not have gone this far. If I’m wrong, why is it more than not have decided he’s already won his lawsuit?

 

[thperez1972]

Unfortunately, in this situation, once the video was out it became mob rules and the cop was no doubt fired to appease the mob.
Just from what I’ve seen over the past few years, when there’s an encounter like this and the cops spend any amount of time bothering to explain themselves after the fact (i.e. the reason I kicked your ass and shot you was because... you can’t do that, ok?) things just go to $hit. I can’t think of another reason for them doing it except to have the victim/offender/whatever accept the ass whooping without question in hopes that they won’t pursue any type of retaliation. Problem is, at that point it looks a lot like admission of guilt of having mishandled the situation and that’s what people see. In effect, they apologized to an extent for their incorrect actions, wiping the OC from his face and showing concern after they calmed down. The cop seems to have spent a lot of time doing this. He also went on record saying the Lt should fear him. Couple of weak knee jabs while the guy stood there just added to his demerits with the mob. It’s not like he kept a knee on the guy’s neck for a couple minutes but the mob... All in all, if they’d have just hauled him in as soon as cuffs were applied I’m betting it would not have gone this far. If I’m wrong, why is it more than not have decided he’s already won his lawsuit?

Wiping OC from his face - OC is an irritant that coerces compliance by distracting the subject with pain. Once the situation is secure and the subject is in police custody, the police have a duty to care for the subject's safety. And once the subject has complied, the pain is no longer needed to distract the subject.

Saying the LT should fear him - I believe there is a long list of things that would have been better to say in that situation.

weak knee jabs - those were likely within policy. They were instructing the LT to go to the ground but the LT was not complying. (Shocking, I know.) The officer was likely either trying to buckle the LT's legs by hitting the back of the legs or possibly trying to hit the LT's common peroneal nerve.

 

[Magdump]

Wiping OC from his face - OC is an irritant that coerces compliance by distracting the subject with pain. Once the situation is secure and the subject is in police custody, the police have a duty to care for the subject's safety. And once the subject has complied, the pain is no longer needed to distract the subject.

Saying the LT should fear him - I believe there is a long list of things that would have been better to say in that situation.

weak knee jabs - those were likely within policy. They were instructing the LT to go to the ground but the LT was not complying. (Shocking, I know.) The officer was likely either trying to buckle the LT's legs by hitting the back of the legs or possibly trying to hit the LT's common peroneal nerve.

I’m not saying any of the cop’s actions were or were not appropriate. I said, in effect, yada yada or how those actions were seen by the mob. I was saying how they were seen by the mob and how I believe they ultimately contributed to his being fired. Or might I say, the video of those actions. It’ll all also contribute to the Lt winning his lawsuit, I imagine.

 

[MOTOR51]

Wiping OC from his face - OC is an irritant that coerces compliance by distracting the subject with pain. Once the situation is secure and the subject is in police custody, the police have a duty to care for the subject's safety. And once the subject has complied, the pain is no longer needed to distract the subject.

Saying the LT should fear him - I believe there is a long list of things that would have been better to say in that situation.

weak knee jabs - those were likely within policy. They were instructing the LT to go to the ground but the LT was not complying. (Shocking, I know.) The officer was likely either trying to buckle the LT's legs by hitting the back of the legs or possibly trying to hit the LT's common peroneal nerve.

Yeah those were very weak common peroneal strikes. Guess he’s a PPCT graduate . If done correctly those knee strikes are very effective but my dept has went away from PPCT and on to some new teachings. As far as the window tint mention, when I stop a vehicle at night that has dark windows I make them roll all of them down. If they refuse then that’s an indicator that something might not be right. Disobeying a multitude of lawful orders only strengthens a reasonable person believing something more is going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[thperez1972]

I’m not saying any of the cop’s actions were or were not appropriate. I said, in effect, yada yada or how those actions were seen by the mob. I was saying how they were seen by the mob and how I believe they ultimately contributed to his being fired. Or might I say, the video of those actions. It’ll all also contribute to the Lt winning his lawsuit, I imagine.

I understood what you were saying and I don't completely disagree with you. If the video hadn't hit the news or there wasn't a lawsuit, it wouldn't have surprised me if the sarge was moved from the training position and got a suspension but not fired. I was just addressing a few points.

As far the LT winning the lawsuit, he might. I believe the court frowns upon pepper spray being used against passive resistance. The cops tried to go hands with the LT and pull him from the vehicle but the LT wouldn't allow them to open the door. Passive resistance is not following verbal commands but not resisting the police when they attempt to take someone into custody. When someone actively resists allowing the officers to physical over them, they are now actively resisting. At 2:15 in the video, it could be argued the LT went from passive resistance to active resistance.

 

[thperez1972]

Yeah those were very weak common peroneal strikes. Guess he’s a PPCT graduate . If done correctly those knee strikes are very effective but my dept has went away from PPCT and on to some new teachings. As far as the window tint mention, when I stop a vehicle at night that has dark windows I make them roll all of them down. If they refuse then that’s an indicator that something might not be right. Disobeying a multitude of lawful orders only strengthens a reasonable person believing something more is going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I think PPCT changed their name to something less aggressive.

 

[AustinBR]

I think PPCT changed their name to something less aggressive.

I did BJJ for a hot minute and often the LE folks would practice that **** in class. Nothing is more fun that getting kneed in the legs or tapped in the sides for two hours at a time lol

 

[323MAR]

Was that stated as the reason for the felony stop? I'm legitimately asking. I never saw a reason mentioned. Without knowing why they chose to execute a felony stop, I cannot say if it was warranted or not. In a previous post, I gave some opinions as to what could have been factors. But I don't know.

The mace came after the LT didn't exit the vehicle. For 2 minutes, the LT continued to take the incorrect course of action. And it wasn't like the LT didn't know he was about to get maced. He acknowledged the pepper spray but wasn't sprayed for another 20 second. During that time, he refused to get out of the car and actively resisted the officer's attempt to open the car door.

The incident as a whole is made up of a number of individual decisions. If any of those decisions had been different, the outcome might have been different as well. Well before the officer used the pepper spray, the LT had the opportunity to take the correct course of action. Even if we view the officer using pepper spray as being a bad decision, it's reasonable to say the LT had the ability to prevent the officer from making that mistake. The LT's continued 2 minute mistake is what put the officer in the position to make his mistake.

BTW, police discretion and treating people like crap are mutually exclusive. You can be as nice as can be without using officer discretion. You can use officer discretion while treating people like crap. The LT was passively resisting for most of the time.

As I'm typing this reply, I looked for more information. The police chief made a few statement about the incident.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgxqen/caron-nazario-windsor-police-chief-wont-apologize

*At the end of the day, I’m glad that nobody got hurt, that the situation ended the best way it could’ve. I wish he would have complied a whole lot earlier.*

*I’m going to own what we did wrong,* Riddle said. *My guys missed opportunities to verbally de-escalate that thing and change that outcome.*

Still, when asked if he thought the department should apologize to Nazario, Riddle said: *I don’t believe so.*

*Lt. Nazario took certain actions that created where we got to,* Riddle said. *And I think that, you know, we’ll let the courts sort that part of it out, and litigate that part.*


The officers treated the traffic stop as a high-risk encounter and drew their weapons because Nazario had allegedly taken a while to pull over, had tinted windows, and lacked a license plate. The cops initially handled the situation well, Riddle said.

You have made some valid points in this thread. I agree with the Chief that the officers could have avoided the outcome though. If the LT was using a passive aggressive approach in order to manipulate the officers into a civil rights lawsuit, then they played right into his hands.