Colt's grip on military rifle criticized

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  • CajunTim

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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080420/ap_on_re_us/the_gun_wars
    No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives.

    Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press.

    "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

    The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

    "And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to."

    U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available.

    "There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense."

    Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon.

    "We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says.

    William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it.

    "The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong."

    In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

    And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report.

    Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say.

    The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't.

    Or won't.

    "All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago.

    The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each.
     

    CajunTim

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    It is giving me trouble posting the rest of the article, you can read it all at the site above; but it goes into talking about switching out the uppers with the HK416.
     

    BR 870

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    Funny you say that. I was at a 600 yard shoot today. Guns ran fine, hit X's and I got squaded with a very interesting fellow.

    He was probably the most knowledgable person I've every talked to regarding terminal ballistics and weapons in general. dzelenka, thanks for pairing us up... I came to realize you may have put some thought into that one.

    *snip*

    How about the AR in the desert? He ran his for 2500 rounds at a time just to establish it could be done, with what he called the most basic of precautions.

    Basically said the AK and AR are equally flawed in different ways...

    Just about the most extreme example I've seen of someone that has long since transcended worrying about equipment, and is purely focused on the skills to take out a threat - regardless if the tool is a .22 LR or a 105 mm mounted on a plane.
    Thanks for sharing that. Nice to see that some people can see the merits of BOTH platforms without having to turn it into an either/or situation...
     

    Nomad.2nd

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    Part of the military regs is that the weapon must be made here I believe.
    All the FN's I saw were stamped saying they were made here (I forget the state)

    Kinda like Glock is made in Austria... I mean Smyrna Ga. ;)
     

    BR 870

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    Nope. I've been issued FN M4's.
    I'm not saying you are wrong, but the sole-source military contracts and court documents disagree...

    http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opinions/06-1696-01A.pdf

    The design set forth in MIL-C-70559 was deemed proprietary to Colt and, as part of the Addendum, the military designated Colt as its sole supplier of M4s until 2011.

    We agree with Colt that it would be incorrect to exclude the military's understanding of the term M4 simply because it had a sole-source contract with Colt, and therefore could not purchase the weapon elsewhere.

    We know of no trademark law priciple that renders it's (the Military's) understanding of the meaning of M4 inadmissable simply because it was under contract to buy exclusively from Colt.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine
    The M4 was developed and produced for the United States government by Colt Firearms, which has an exclusive contract to produce the M4 family of weapons through 2009

    And as noted in the article above (not saying that means much, MSM gets alot of stuff wrong...)

    Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production

    FN does make the M-16A4 however...
     
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    Nomad.2nd

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    I'm not saying you are wrong, but the sole-source military contracts and court documents disagree...

    I'm pretty much out dude, LOD orders and I take my final physical (AGAIN) tomorrow...

    But I'll see about getting someone to confirm.

    -After I was hurt I spent some time working in the armory... I've handled them ALL.
     

    BR 870

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    I'm pretty much out dude, LOD orders and I take my final physical (AGAIN) tomorrow...

    But I'll see about getting someone to confirm.

    -After I was hurt I spent some time working in the armory... I've handled them ALL.
    Cool... That would help clear this up.

    Found this:
    http://www.fnmfg.com/products/

    FN only lists making the M-16A4, but no mention of the M4 on their website.

    and this:
    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m-16-rifle-purchases-04517/

    The US Marines and Navy have been known to use M4s, but it is not their primary battle rifle.

    The M16A4 is the standard rifle of the US Marine Corps. Its biggest innovation is replacement of the M-16 family’s the well known carrying handle/sight with the MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail that lets troops mount and remove a carrying handle, sights, and other useful attachments without specialized tools. Other MIL-STD-1913 rails can be found on the front grips et. al. of the A3s and A4s, where they mount useful items like flashlights, laser pointers, grip pods, et. al.

    Unlike the M4 Carbine, which is procured as a sole-source item proprietary to Colt, M-16 production is competed.

    Dec 26/07: FN Manufacturing in Columbia, SC received a $33.7 million firm-fixed-price, contract for M16A3 and M16A4 Rifles to support the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Marine Corps. Work will be performed in Columbia, SC, and is expected to be complete by Dec 31/10. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. Web bids were solicited on Sep. 10, 2007, and 9 bids were received by TACOM LCMC in Rock Island, IL (W52H09-08-D-0121).

    Dec 26/07: Colt Defense in Hartford, CT received a $15.9 million firm-fixed-price contract for M16A3 and M16A4 Rifles to support the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Marine Corps. Work will be performed in Hartford, CT and is expected to be complete by Dec 13/10. Web bids were solicited on Sept 10/07, and 9 bids were received. by TACOM LCMC in Rock Island, IL (W52H09-08-D-0122).
     

    Nomad.2nd

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    Talked to a Sgt Buddy of mine at lunch I CANNOT CONFIRM THIS:
    He said that FN had bought out Colt's contract.

    Edited to add: (The rifles I'm referencing came with the new MARSOC package if that helps)
    -The eagle case, mags with Green followers, 2 reflex sites, light...
     

    Vanilla Gorilla

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    There are no issued FN M4s. Any M4 you see witha FN USA roll mark is a cut down M16. The DOD has tried to let FN make them and had to settle with Colt to spare themselves losing a 300Mil law suit. Colt has been granted the sole provider contract for the M4. There were about 500 M4s made by Bushmaster for the DOD and they are all in the same Arms Room at Ft Knox and out of service.
     

    Nomad.2nd

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    M4:
    Collapsable stock, 14.5 inch barrel, FA, semi, Safe, 1/9 Twist IIRC, detachable carrying handle, and rails with Knights rail covers.

    M16A2: fixed stock, 20 inch barrel, 3 round burst, semi, safe.
    Permantly attached carrying handle, no rail system

    M16A4: Fixed stock, 20 inch barrel, 1/7 twist IIRC, 3 round burst, semi, safe.
    Detachable carrying handle, and rails with Knights Rail covers.

    I've been issued all 3 types.


    Maby I'm wrong, or maby I saw some 'cutdowns' but I'd like to know...
     

    Nomad.2nd

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    I can't imagine anything uses a 1/9 these days... particularly an M4 if shooting 855.


    SS109 and Black hills is all I ever got.

    Might not be 1/9 but I'm pretty sure it's different than the 1/7

    (But who knows, the way my memory might be going.:D)

    Tried to look it up. Didn't, but found this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Carbine
    In the last few years, M4A1 carbines have been refit or received straight from factory with barrels with a thicker profile under the handguard

    Never even thought about what VG said about refits till he said it.

    Like I said. I don't even know at this point.
    Someone get me some pix!:eek3:
     

    Nomad.2nd

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    From what I have been told today, the M-16A4 is the current issue Marine Corps rifle; with some M-4s for selected staff NCOs and officers. Supposedly, there were very few M4s indeed in the hands of marines in 2004.

    The Gunner would like to know exactly WHERE you were; he has gotten interested in this too.

    .


    I told you the unit, town and State by PM.

    We had just gotten the MARSOC package I described in a PM.
    (As I said)

    -Belay that, I was talking to someone else about the MARSOC package.
     
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