Colt's grip on military rifle criticized

[Vanilla Gorilla]

The Cut Down M16s are few and far between but they were M16A2s that were chopped. The are easy to spot because they lack the "Goventment Profile Barrel" i.e. the stepped Barrel for the grenade launcher.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

No... you told me where the unit is NOW.

What my friend wants to know is where in theater you saw these FN M4s. He's been there, knows some people still there, etc.

And what's with the PMs? This is an interesting discussion that others are following.

.

And that's where they were.

Stepped barrels, so ether I'm right or wrong. No cutdowns.


As for the PM's... My when/where military history is my busness, not to be posted in detail all over the net.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

I carried a SAW most of the time, and didn't have a digital camera.
(Used disposables... I'm a cheap bastard)

Your welcome to look at those though

 

[Ihatemakingusernames]

I have a pic from a digital camera you guys can check out... look what this moron ALMOST did to our truck!

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Okay, now I'm confused. I was under the impression that you were issued one of these mysterious FN M4s while in Iraq/Afghanistan/wherever.

Now you're saying that you saw/had them at the reserve unit stateside, both of which you wish to remain un-named?

.

This a second request for clarification of your statements, Nomad.

How about it????

.

I VERY clearly stated the unit.

You asked me:

Okay. Where is this unit now, to save my guy some legwork?

When were you there?

.

I responded with the State, town, and year.

This was a couple days ago.

NOW you are saying you thought it was overseas when you knew the state etc the other day? (Edited to add: Wednesday)

WTF dude?

 

[Nomad.2nd]

YOU said -

1. All the stuff you saw for the past 7 years waws FN
-Yep, maby I'm wrong that's what we're working on
2. YOU wanted help getting pics
-It was offered

3. YOU shot people with an AR over there, so unless that was the A4 you were issued, it was the M4
A4, as I had temporallarly passed off the SAW.
If YOU wanted help getting pics of FN M4s, LSP was trying to help, and said he needed to know where you were over there.
-Gave specifics 3 days ago, and now he's trying to act like I didn't

Further, you have posted your military history and whereabouts in other places publically, why not here? You certainly have a lot to say about your beliefs as a result of those experiences.

I have not given units or dates online, just specific small details.
due to the coordinated attack I will.
Cpl
0311/0321 (ARS Fort Story, Class 01-02)
1/23 Bravo Company
3Rd Force Recon Co
4 years 9 months Active duty.
Deployed to Iraq Aug 2004-March 20 2005


What i said was:

I carried a SAW most of the time, and didn't have a digital camera.
(Used disposables... I'm a cheap bastard)

Your welcome to look at those though

Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I'll Say the AR's a Piece of ****.

I didn't like it in training when I had (And saw) it jam.

And I didn't like it when I had to shoot people in the chest 5-7 times to get them to fall down in Iraq.

As for an AR handling better than an AK... DON'T RUN AN AK LIKE AN AR!
Go on over to www.warriortalk.com for some tips on how to run an ak.

As for 'long distance shooting' I've found an Ak to be adequate out to 300 meters. If you want to match an AK vs an AR for range... Ok, first lets do some low crawls through the swamp and ford some rivers...

-Some guys on Warriortalk shot an AK out to 500... go check the thread, I didn't read it all, not my thing.

- I'll just use my M1A or Barrett.

I've shot a M4 (Real, not 16") out past 400 meters... it'll do it, but starts getting hard.
(500 with a 20" M16 isn't)

Back in... I believe it was 2003 at our annual rifle qual they got the bright idea of making us qual with our T&W weapons.
THIS is where I get the "past 400 experence from")
-Also at gunsite's 223 class, but that's another story.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

So, we have established -

You said you were issued an FN M4, you think with other than 1/7 twist, and you shot people that took 5-7 hits in the chest before they would go down using either SS109 or BH.

You inspected these FNs closely enought to establish they were made in the US, i.e. were FN's for sure.

You know a fair amount about stuff, but don't know the BTR of the M4, which has been the same for almost two decades, and is a critical aspect of the weapon due to the ammo selection - SS109 and BH, regardless of which MOD, has to be used with 1/7.

Upon it being pointed out that FN M4s don't exist, and that M4s in USMC hands were rare in 2004, you requested help finding pics. Legit, capable help was offered from more than one source. To give the help requested some very basic info is necessary - when, where, who, and what armory. That is apparently top secret intel.

When the details don't jibe, it is chalked up to memory problems.

That is how I see it so far.

We agree that I may or may not be mistaken as to the twist of the barrels (Which doesn't matter to the shooter as he uses what he is issued)
And the maker of the rifles.
(Which I may or may not have mixed up)

When asked I Pm'd the unit, and then Date, state, and town to LSP972.

Later... you and he (With whom I've had some nice knock down Drag outs with in the past) try to make it seem like I had NOT provided this information, and was in fact trying to hide something.
(As you are doing in the post Quoted)

SO I posted it up.

-The type of unit might reflect why there were M4's. BTW, we got MSIDS pretty early too.
- I think I remarked that the M4's came with the MUSOC package which IF my apparently dubious memory serves me came with:
(6) Ar mags, Green Followers
(1) Eagle case (Green or woodland)
(1) tac light which used MULTABLE AA batteries
(1) tridjacon reflex sight (the one that is grey and you need an alen wrench to adjust the dot)
-Something else... (Again, I forget. I've done a few things since then)

YOU are claiming i had these "FN M4's in the sandbox."
'I have stated the place and date (Only one armory at the Company) HERE IN THE STATES.

So, we clear yet?
How about those pix? Like I said, being a self confessed gunnut I want to know if I am wrong.
(Unfortunately most of my buddies are out, my own EAS is long past as I have stated, I'm held up on LOD orders or I'd get them myself.)

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Twist rate may not matter to non-gun nuts, but I would expect someone who trains, calls the AR a POS, etc to know WTF the basic technical issues were.
-Like with the 50 discussion... I stated I didn't know (OR care about) all that technical stuff... I just know enough to shoot the thing and hit with it.

That, however, isn't the issue.

1. You stated you have been issued an FM M4. I didn't say where, you said it happened, period.
I have to go to bed so I can Kyaking tomorrow... if you say so (I could be wrong again)

2. LSP didn't deny you sent the info, just stated what he got wasn't what he needed.
I don't know HOW much more specific than: State, City, Unit, time, and armory I can get.



I'm trying to get clear. I'll provide that intel to my guys, and I'm sure LSP will do the same.
Thanks


Regarding our knock down, drag outs in the in the past - I seem to remember something there... you starting them.
Seems to me posting an inflamatory statement about how Single points cause weapons to fire and then saying you'll SHOOT us IS starting it.[/B]

You made the assumptions, you cross posted about me being a mall ninja retard over at GOTX and having a greek bath house cirlce jerk until I showed up and called ********. I also seem to remember me backing up every reference I cited as to my rationale, regardless of who agreed or disagreed with that point of view.
Greek bath house? I stated I was the retard, kinda like we are NOW with this pointless back and forth. Pics are all that will settle this. (And If I'm wrong... so be it. only 2 perfect people walked this earth. Jesus and my Mother!
Your and my (and several other people's) views of 'Rationale backing up' are VERY different apparently.
But do we REALLY want to get into that again? As I have proof in that my single point has not killed me yet

I can't see the GOTX thread anymore since JY deleted it - but I sure would love a copy. As a mod, can you still view that and print it as a .pdf? I'd love to have a copy.

I cannot.

night

 

[Ihatemakingusernames]

should have brought a dig cam dude, you could have pics like this, PAO can't go on all the missions

Now mind you these aren't FN made M4s but these are "MEU" weapons...

 

[nola_]

NOMAD, seems like you're stirring up the pot. I got to say, if you can't back up your posts with pics, you prob just embaressed yourself by fibbing. I'd have more respect for you if you came clean now,

 

[nola_]

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Coordinated attack???

Get a freakin' grip.

YOU made the flat statement regarding FN-produced M4s. I was interested, because even though it is common knowledge that Colt owns the exclusive rights to the M4, and in fact took the government to court when DOD tried to allow FN to produce them (and won), I know all too well how procurement systems on this scale can have anomalies. So I thought, "The guy seems sure of himself; let's see if I can help get to the bottom of it."

When called on it (not by me or pangris), you stated "Nope, I was issued one."

When called on it again (not by me or pangris), you suddenly get a possible memory lapse.

As pangris pointed out, past remarks in other threads caused me to assume you were talking about the sandbox. Your cryptic PM did say 3rd Recon in Mobile, 2004... and nothing else. I then realize I could be mistaken in my assumption and ask for clarification; and off you go... AFTER being prodded. What were you going to do, just ignore us and hope we would go away?

You want to claim that you've been attacked? Try this; my ******** meter has been twitching for a while over some things you've written.

Now its pegged; if you get my drift... dude.

.

Ether I'm sure of myself and worth listning to or Full of BS, one or the other dude.

I didn't expect you go away. I expected you to come BACK so we can see if I'm right or wrong.

-Yes, when all kinds of people are saying: Dude, your mistaken.. I am NOT infallible. But I STILL believe I am correct. BTW, this would be the original 60, as I understand there are more now. (16's traded out for more M4's)
-And I'm working on it. I asked a guy I know to check and I'll make another call to someone else tomorrow.

Organsied attack: Yea dude, we are discussing things by PM and INSTED of Pming me as you had done so that it would pop up in my E-mail and bring it at my attention... You post it here... Besides, you 2 have done this before.
Atleast (As far as I can tell) Pangres isn't editing my posts like he has done to others he gets in arguements with.
However, I put up...

ANYWAY... Lets find out.

NOMAD, seems like you're stirring up the pot. I got to say, if you can't back up your posts with pics, you prob just embaressed yourself by fibbing. I'd have more respect for you if you came clean now,

Working on getting some dude, as they are.
We shall see.
(If I'm wrong... I'll admit it. I'm NOT 'fibbing')

 

[nola_]

nomad. what is your real name?

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Come to a build party and I'll tell you

 

[nola_]

whatever, dude. I don't know what a build party is.

Does anyone on here know Nomad's real name?

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Who are you dude?

You know Doc Chris Castle?

 

[Ihatemakingusernames]

I never saw an FN M4.. saw plenty of these!!!

 

[nola_]

NOMAD,

i got a feeling if anything, you're a weekend warrior.

 

[nola_]

do you have initials, nomad?

 

[BOSS302]

nola,

What exactly is your problem with Nomad? You insist on starting crap because you obviously think you know better than everyone here. I've probably held, shot, taken apart, and reassembled more M4s and more M16s than you've ever seen, yet you pick a fight with someone who has expressed an opinion, and still you have failed to provide any hard data yourself, other than a picture than can be found on google. Colt has the military contract to build the M4 rifle, FN has the contract to build the M16s. I have seen a few chopped up FNs with mid length barrels, and those might have been confused with an M4, but they are still considered an M16 solely by definition of manufacturer. I have also seen a few FN lowers built with Colt uppers to be used in training purposes, because an armorer will do whatever it takes to give a soldier a properly functioning weapon. I am a Colt certified armorer and can attest the fact that the firearms are virtually identical other than the barrel length, gas tube, and hand guard assembly. If you have any further questions or knowledge that you might like to impart, I am all ears.

Boss302