M-16 VS AK-47.....Again

[JWG223]

Sure. I like Pat, although it's been quite a few years since I took one of his classes.

-Don't quote me, but IIRC hsi defination of 'not cleaning' doesn't include 'wiping off' certain areas while 'relubing' them.

AR's run best WET.

Conversely, I've just built an AK, not even shaken out the metal shards or refinished it and sent it off to a fighting rifle class where it functioned UNLUBED.

As to the other video... Lets leave the safety off so we can pour rocks into the AK action shall we... and THEN do what we can. (And you got the 'it worked THIS TIME' at the geginning of the AR video didn't you?


Want me to do a video proving a Jennings is better than a glock?

Okay, lets see your AK do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MA1IFKwdAQ&feature=related

Now this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0


If you can't lube your weapon or take care of it, sure, get an AK, but that's like me saying that I can't afford to or be tasked with selecting the 91 octane + at the gas station so I'm going to trade my Z06 for a diesel VW Jedda so I only have one fuel to pick from and don't have to work as hard to keep it running. You can go on and on about availability of lube etc. etc. but I'm here to tell you that I have plenty of CLP so it's just not a problem for me. Failing that, in a true SHTF situation, just one automobile and a 1L water bottle filled with oil taken from its sump will keep you going for MONTHS. Car will still probably do just fine down 1 L, too.

All this being said, suitable lube is FAR EASIER to find than ammo. I have GALLONS of suitable lube out in the parkinglot at my apartment complex right now. However, I doubt we enough ammo in the entire city of Shreveport to exhaust that lube if applied correctly to an AR, even if I had a firearm that would last that long mechanically.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Okay, lets see your AK do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MA1IFKwdAQ&feature=related

Now this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0


If you can't lube your weapon or take care of it, sure, get an AK, but that's like me saying that I can't afford to or be tasked with selecting the 91 octane + at the gas station so I'm going to trade my Z06 for a diesel VW Jedda so I only have one fuel to pick from and don't have to work as hard to keep it running. You can go on and on about availability of lube etc. etc. but I'm here to tell you that I have plenty of CLP so it's just not a problem for me. Failing that, in a true SHTF situation, just one automobile and a 1L bottle of oil from its sump will keep you going for MONTHS. Car will still probably do just fine down 1 L, too.

Who was it that told you to stop when you were behind?

You want me to shoot my AK underwater and have the round travel a few feet?

Your internet Foo is failing you.

Google "US SEALS"

As to your range... Look into Zack Smith Shooting his AK at 500+, and also look into what the .223 balistics are out that far.

(I used a 14.5 M4 at Gunsite and I'll tell you, Peper Popers at 400 +/- is HARD...)
-This from someone who's 8-9 outa 10 at the 500 with a 16.


As to lube and abuse... It's called COMBAT for a reason.

One night I did a faceplant into a rice paddy.

I just had a 'feeling' so I swaped barrels (M249)

Bout 12 hours later I had a chance to LOOK at the barrel I had taken off...

Several inches of mud.


IF we could control life that much we wouldn't need guns!


I've sat around with Marines cleaning our weapons... then go to chow, load up and drive to the gate.
AT THE GATE the rifles wouldn't manually chamber a round due to dust. (happened more than once)

-Sometimes we'd clean the night before, sometimes that AM. Didn't do more than walk around.

I say again... what do I know. I guess I should go have a firefight in a pool or something!?!?!?!

 

[Nomad.2nd]

All this being said, suitable lube is FAR EASIER to find than ammo. I have GALLONS of suitable lube out in the parkinglot at my apartment complex right now. However, I doubt we enough ammo in the entire city of Shreveport to exhaust that lube if applied correctly to an AR, even if I had a firearm that would last that long mechanically.

I've lubed weapons off a dipstick...

Never did it in the middle of a 2 way range though...

Kinda complicates things when your weapon FAILS when people are shooting at you.


(Now where's my swim trunks)

 

[returningliberty]

MUAHAHAHA no Wonder Nomad likes AK's, he's a MARINE!!
Knuckledragger!

/thread right there. no more comments needed.
Serious though, Recon is Recon, weather its Cav or USMC; glad you're not a FOBbit. I still think you're nuts for picking AK's over AR's though. I cannot imagine a military or civilian use that would be better suited to using an AK.

Home defense: frangible ammo in an AR; no overpen.
Police: same, + superior accuracy for taking a dangerous shot.

Mil: AR is more accurate at range, faster in MOUT (can't deny that, I've seen dudes with AK's trying MOUT, they're freaking SLOW), easier to employ SPEAR tactics (probably an IMO here), faster mag swaps, a Foreward Assist (that god for that thing!), more ammo can be carried, rails for PAQ 4 (Never seen one of Those on an AK!), and... and... well hell, AK'S ARE FOR THE BAD GUYS!

 

[JWG223]

Who was it that told you to stop when you were behind?

You want me to shoot my AK underwater and have the round travel a few feet?
Could care less. Posted it because of the HK416 video showing an AR "blowing up" when fired wet.
Your internet Foo is failing you.

Google "US SEALS"
See above, and the seals began being issued the HK416 in the early 2000's. Totally different system.
As to your range... Look into Zack Smith Shooting his AK at 500+, and also look into what the .223 balistics are out that far.
5.56 definitely isn't a real magnum out there, but it will still ruin your day. Not saying its effective range is 800 yards, just saying that the AR is a precise enough platform to do it. The 6.5 Grendal will work like a charm, though.
(I used a 14.5 M4 at Gunsite and I'll tell you, Peper Popers at 400 +/- is HARD...)
Think you could have done it with your AK any easier, or would it maybe have been harder?
-This from someone who's 8-9 outa 10 at the 500 with a 16.
How do you do on the same with your AK?


As to lube and abuse... It's called COMBAT for a reason.
I don't think you can carry enough ammo on your person without sacrificing the rest of your combat load-out to dry out a correctly lubed AR enough to make it jam. If you are ever in the area, let me know and I will bring hte crappiest AR in the same (some Oly-arms mutt) and let you put 300 rounds (aimed fire) through it and see if it jams. We can even use Wolf to cut down on the cost. If it jams, I'll write you a check for the cost of the ammo and cover lunch.
One night I did a faceplant into a rice paddy.

I just had a 'feeling' so I swaped barrels (M249)

Bout 12 hours later I had a chance to LOOK at the barrel I had taken off...

Several inches of mud.
and you would have been okay with that had it been an AK?

IF we could control life that much we wouldn't need guns!
Hunting, sporting, etc...

I've sat around with Marines cleaning our weapons... then go to chow, load up and drive to the gate.
AT THE GATE the rifles wouldn't manually chamber a round due to dust. (happened more than once)
Environmental. Iraq is the moon as far as I am concerned.
-Sometimes we'd clean the night before, sometimes that AM. Didn't do more than walk around.

I say again... what do I know. I guess I should go have a firefight in a pool or something!?!?!?!

I'll keep my AR. Never had any real issue out of it, and something like nearly 90% of your contemporaries like it, too. Try finding ANYTHING ELSE that 90% of GI's agree on.

 

[returningliberty]

Actually, Upon thinking about it, I CAN think of a good use for an AK that M-16's dont handle well. freaking SNOW. Wet, muddy, nasty snow is truly awful and jammed the Crap out of my M-16 Constantly in Scout school. It Flat Did Not Matter how much I cleaned it, weather the dust cover was open or closed, I even tried taping the mag well once (in school, the Drills didn't notice and no one was the wiser), and it STILL jammed. the foreward assist barely worked cause **** was in it, the bolt really didnt slide home well until the gun was Hot, and Getting it hot was a f****** problem cause the mags wouldnt seat right and the damn thing barely fired.

 

[Leonidas]

Who was it that told you to stop when you were behind?

Me, me, me, me, me. Got another.

When you're in a hole, first, stop diggin'.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

MUAHAHAHA no Wonder Nomad likes AK's, he's a MARINE!!
Knuckledragger!

Longer reach is an ADVANTAGE!

/thread right there. no more comments needed.
Serious though, Recon is Recon, weather its Cav or USMC; glad you're not a FOBbit. I still think you're nuts for picking AK's over AR's though. I cannot imagine a military or civilian use that would be better suited to using an AK.

I think the reverse....

Home defense: frangible ammo in an AR; no overpen.

Agreed. Infact, I know of several SWAT teams who went to 9mm AR's due to worry of overpenatration.
Found out that the 9mm penatrated MORE and went back to the .223's

You CAN'T have it both ways!!!!!!

It ether doesn't penatrate.... or it does.

I HAVE a 9mm with a light next to my bed. a Glock 19 with a TRL-1
If I need more... 30 rounds of 7.62x39

Police: same, + superior accuracy for taking a dangerous shot.

Check some of these specs on the ranges... you could make them with an open sited 30-30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QABoEzyBm9w&feature=related

Mil: AR is more accurate at range,

Yes, thiswould matter in a hostage situation. Not an active shooter.

But then... patrol guys don't take those shots very often do they?

faster in MOUT (can't deny that, I've seen dudes with AK's trying MOUT, they're freaking SLOW),

Actually I DO disagree. As I said.... it's a mistake to try to run an AK like an AR. It's amusing to watch this realization finally sink in.

easier to employ SPEAR tactics (probably an IMO here),

Yep... opinion, Buddy of mine is into that... I'm not. It's kinda funny to watch his little 'moves'

Cause they work GREAT.

...Until they don't.

faster mag swaps,

2 seconds is fast enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7hi20TI_jA&feature=related

You forgot one thing... Almost every jam (When they occure) can be fixed in this manner. (Us Marines like KISS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQEW74OMQjM&NR=1

a Foreward Assist (that god for that thing!),

On most other fighting rifles in the world.... it's called a bolt handle! (Vs a cheap piece of Al 'charging handle' that bends when your trying to OPEN the action!)

more ammo can be carried,

And more ammo (Which takes more TOT) is needed.

rails for PAQ 4 (Never seen one of Those on an AK!),

IMHO... No use for one. NVG's and a Red dot do the same thing w/o a line back to you and more cr@p on the gun.

Personal decision... But I know quite a few guys with Quadrails on AK's if you insisted.

and... and... well hell, AK'S ARE FOR THE BAD GUYS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcrtrFgDE8&feature=related

 

[JWG223]

The AR is not reliable/the 5.56 is impotent because someone has been to Iraq and says it is so.
His opinion is better because he is enlisted/went to Iraq.
His opinion is at odds with the force that he enlisted with that sent him to Iraq, and nearly 9 out of 10 of his contemporaries.
Irony abounds.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Could care less. Posted it because of the HK416 video showing an AR "blowing up" when fired wet.

Okkkkk

See above, and the seals began being issued the HK416 in the early 2000's. Totally different system.

THere are things which are not on the internets....

5.56 definitely isn't a real magnum out there, but it will still ruin your day. Not saying its effective range is 800 yards, just saying that the AR is a precise enough platform to do it. The 6.5 Grendal will work like a charm, though.

6.5 is not issued. I have already stated I have only shot people with one round.
If you wish to argue others you will need to dfind someone else.

Doesn't remove the issues with the platform. (If I HAD to have an AR... it would be an AR10)

Think you could have done it with your AK any easier, or would it maybe have been harder?

Easier... I'd not shoot just like I didn't in the real world. (Or I'd dump a mag) ether way...

How do you do on the same with your AK?

Corps has this 'issue' with pringing personally owned weapons to the range.

and you would have been okay with that had it been an AK?

You (Intentionally I suspect) miss the point.
You can't rely on proper maintenance in the 'noninternet world'
(More on this later)

Hunting, sporting, etc...

Not 'needs'

I don't think you can carry enough ammo on your person without sacrificing the rest of your combat load-out to dry out a correctly lubed AR enough to make it jam. If you are ever in the area, let me know and I will bring hte crappiest AR in the same (some Oly-arms mutt) and let you put 300 rounds (aimed fire) through it and see if it jams. We can even use Wolf to cut down on the cost. If it jams, I'll write you a check for the cost of the ammo and cover lunch.

Well for one thing I carried 600-800 rounds in Iraq... If you want to take it to something like Tactical Responses Fighting rifle vs the local gravel pit... let me know.

Environmental. Iraq is the moon as far as I am concerned.

Don't have sand and mud in La?

I'll keep my AR. Never had any real issue out of it, and something like nearly 90% of your contemporaries like it, too. Try finding ANYTHING ELSE that 90% of GI's agree on.

LOL!

What BS government propaganda have YOU been reading!

The AR is not reliable/the 5.56 is impotent because someone has been to Iraq and says it is so.

No. Not cause I went to Iraq. Lota guys go there and never fire a round.
You are missing the point.

I ALSO note you are missing a rather long response to a couple particular comments of yours... Care to rectify that error?

His opinion is better because he is enlisted/went to Iraq.

Better than what?
Better than some? Yes.
Worse than others? Yes.

I HAVE said (Several times AND in this thread) that the odds are that an AR WILL work for the less than 3 mags anyone reading this will ever 'need' to fire in the 50 states.
Just not for me.

His opinion is at odds with the force that he enlisted with that sent him to Iraq, and nearly 9 out of 10 of his contemporaries.
Irony abounds.

Again, where is this crack you are smoking?


Relying on the Internets... You seem unfamiliar with the basic truths which are outlined in "War is a Racket"
Allow me to paraphrase:

Issue weapons, or No child left behind:

The people making decisions (Bean counters and politicos) are not the people toting the weapon, or teaching the child.

And they don;t ASK those that are!



According to briefing documents obtained by Gannett’s Army Times magazine:

3rd ID soldier: “I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too.”

25th Infantry Division soldier: “The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights.”

82nd Airborne Division soldier: “The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”

75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM: “Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”

The 507th Maintenance Company, ambushed outside Nasariyah in 2003 during the opening days of the ground invasion of Iraq, might concur with all of the above. The post-incident report released by the US Army had this to say:

“Dusty, desert conditions do require vigilance in weapons maintenance… However, it is imperative to remember that at the time of the attack, the 507th had spent more than two days on the move, with little rest and time to conduct vehicle repair and recovery operations.”

A December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by CNA Corp., conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty. The M4 received a number of strong requests from M-16 users, who liked its smaller profile. Among M4 users, however, 19% of said they experienced stoppages in combat – and almost 20% of those said they were “unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage.”

 

[JWG223]

Lets talk a little about the study that we BOTH quoted. Since INTERNETZ is okay for you now and not me...wtf? We both cited different parts of the same study. So, here is the entire bloody thing:

http://images.military.com/pix/defensetech/cna_m4_study_d0015259_a2.pdf

Over 75 percent of
the soldiers surveyed provided recommendations. The most frequent
recommendations included weapons and ammunition with
more stopping power/lethality, higher quality magazines for the
M9, M4, and M16

Result?:
PMAG's, SOST MK318 MOD 0, new, re-designed USGI mags.

Weapons that were rebuilt were reportedly repaired more often
than non-rebuilt weapons, and those with rebuilt weapons were less
likely to be confident in the durability of the weapon.

Result? I don't buy previously fingered AR's and rely 100% on them.

Overall, 78 percent of soldiers surveyed reported being satisfied
with their weapons. Soldiers were most satisfied with the M4 (89
percent)

There you go. 89% satisfaction. That's the "INTERNETZ ********" I have been reading. The same thing you just regurgitated.

So basically, 89% of soldiers were satisfied with some possibly re-built weapon using inferior magazines and a carbine length gas system. How much happier would they be with a Noveske Mid-length and some PMAG's?

I dunno. I'm happy with the other non-issued AR's (yes, I know the M4/A4 are the issue, not "AR") I have owned and shot. Every Marine that shot them along side me said they put his issue equipment to shame (albeit that was only one or two people, yay for limited sample size), I bet I love the Noveske, too!

My point in all of this is: You had an issue weapon and M855. Both of which suck in my opinion, although everyone I talked to who hit someone COM with M855 said they went down. It's a moot point. I don't run M855, and I don't run military serviced carbine-length gas system weapons. We might as well be talking about a regular corvette and the C6R ALMS car.

*That document contains a TON of support for both our viewpoints, depending on how we want to quote it. Sadly, no contemporary for the AK-47 exists that I am aware of.

**I would be MORE than happy to bring myself and equipment to some tactical courses. I have a **** ton to learn about employing and mastering the weapon system. However, I am the weak link, not the weapon system. Maybe we can attend a class together at some point and compare notes on who's what jammed/broke "X" # of times. Give me until next year (3-4mo) when I get a few things done financially. I plan on doing a lot of travel next year searching for a new place to live, and a quality firearm's course is a nice excuse!

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Lets talk a little about the study that we BOTH quoted. Since INTERNETZ is okay for you now and not me...wtf? We both cited different parts of the same study. So, here is the entire bloody thing:

http://images.military.com/pix/defensetech/cna_m4_study_d0015259_a2.pdf

Yea, I couldn't find the one I wanted in the time I was willing to spend.

you Vs Me:
The difference is... you keep insisting on the interwebs while I did post after post of FIRST HAND... you (Obviously) perfer 3rd or 4th hand... Can do that too...

Result?:
PMAG's, SOST MK318 MOD 0, new, re-designed USGI mags.

Result? I don't buy previously fingered AR's and rely 100% on them.

So you have something against used guns???? WTF?
NO, that's NOT a solution. (You ARE aware that after the first round... it's used... right?)
Don't rely 100% on them?

Your right... You shouldn't rely 100% on an AR.
I have no idea what you are TRYING to say

There you go. 89% satisfaction. That's the "INTERNETZ ********" I have been reading. The same thing you just regurgitated.

No, I quoted the FAILURES IN COMBAT!!!!!

So basically, 89% of soldiers were satisfied with some re-built weapon using inferior magazines and a carbine length gas system. How much happier would they be with a Noveske Mid-length and some PMAG's?

Did you know it takes 10 POGes to (historically) get one man on the front lines... (Little less now)

I have given you story after story of FIRST HAND observations.
Now numbers of near 20% failures in combat

GO back ALLLLL the way to Vietnam... And check the data.

As to midlength's and P mags: I'm sure they would help. FROM MY EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATION... Not gonna fix it.

I dunno. I'm happy.

Yes, because of your use.

My point in all of this is: You had an issue weapon and M855. Both of which suck in my opinion, although everyone I talked to who hit someone COM with M855 said they went down. It's a moot point. I don't run M855, and I don't run military serviced carbine-length gas system weapons. We might as well be talking about a regular corvette and the C6R ALMS car.

Well, since you INSIST on ignoring the FACTS I have written in that previous post... I'll just say no.
Check your facts and STOP acting like you know WTF I've done... and what I've done it with!

*That document contains a TON of support for both our viewpoints, depending on how we want to quote it. Sadly, no contemporary for the AK-47 exists that I am aware of.

Col David Hackworth covered it quite well.

 

[JWG223]

Yea, I couldn't find the one I wanted in the time I was willing to spend.

you Vs Me:
The difference is... you keep insisting on the interwebs while I did post after post of FIRST HAND... you (Obviously) perfer 3rd or 4th hand... Can do that too...


So you have something against used guns???? WTF?
NO, that's NOT a solution. (You ARE aware that after the first round... it's used... right?)
Don't rely 100% on them?

Your right... You shouldn't rely 100% on an AR.
I have no idea what you are TRYING to say


No, I quoted the FAILURES IN COMBAT!!!!!


Did you know it takes 10 POGes to (historically) get one man on the front lines... (Little less now)

I have given you story after story of FIRST HAND observations.
Now numbers of near 20% failures in combat

GO back ALLLLL the way to Vietnam... And check the data.

As to midlength's and P mags: I'm sure they would help. FROM MY EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATION... Not gonna fix it.



Yes, because of your use.


Well, since you INSIST on ignoring the FACTS I have written in that previous post... I'll just say no.
Check your facts and STOP acting like you know WTF I've done... and what I've done it with!



Col David Hackworth covered it quite well.

You're a second hand source (to me). Just like my former USMC roommate. Both of you spent years in combat in Iraq using the A4, M4, and M249 (well, he did, don't know how long you were there or what you used) to put an end to numerous people who wished you ill (and thank-you for your service!).

I am just going to agree to disagree with you on this one. See you at a tactical course in a few months and look forward to seeing who's what breaks/jams when (if any). Be safe and have a good one.

*I won't rely on a used AR until I go through it fully and make sure it was properly built/maintained. I know way too many systems that are junk and built by supposedly competent people (former USMC, etc.). I end up having to trouble-shoot it at the range or personally after they hand it to me and ask WTF is wrong with it.

A few things I have seen that support this:

feed-ramps poorly done, M855 snags between the feed-ramp and the upper in the crack there.
Absolute co-witness attempted with $79 red-dot and Tapco mount.
Improperly secured buffer-tube backing out launching buffer detent into trigger assy. and locking the weapon up.

All of these were builds I helped their owners correct or second-hand guns my dad bought at a good deal and wanted returned to fully functional condition.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

I'd say 90% of troops I deal with everyday are happy with m4. Granted this is only word of mouth not some study with money involved trying to buy scars. Maintaining your equipment is what makes our force diffent front thier force. Being a Marine I imagine the TM Manuals were written at alittle too high level so you get pass on that one. An AR is more ergro for 90% of everybody. The other 10% are left eye dom right handed or other left hand right eye and these people are supressive fire people in combat because they usally can't hit anything. I could see a weapon with slow ergos with charging handle on wrong side that shoots a 4 - 8 inch pattern would be perfect for these people as long as it keeps enemy heads down and makes alot of noise

 

[JWG223]

Unrelated vid but since everyone was posting them
Here's one from your youtube channel

Love the look of satisfaction at the end of your vid JWG223

That's not me.
This is me:


Mixture of 2.75 and 3" buck. That Blackhawk recoil-reducing stock that my friend insisted on putting on the gun made shucking it while riding the recoil awkward. I don't recommend it. Hogue youth stock would be much better, and I believe he is changing it out to such.


BTW, nice chop quote, but my Dad is a fan of buying stuff at below market value when he gets the chance. I never was much into that because I have observed all the problems he has to correct (or me, in the case of his firearms), which often end up costing enough to make the item in-line with or ABOVE market value. We may agree on many things, but we have diametrically opposed philosophies on what a "good deal" is.

Anyway, what's your point?

PS> The look of satisfaction was good for an LOL, thanks!

 

[SGT_Kramer]

IMHO... No use for one. NVG's and a Red dot do the same thing w/o a line back to you and more cr@p on the gun.

Personal decision... But I know quite a few guys with Quadrails on AK's if you insisted

Not gonna say much here but you seem alittle outta date PEQ 15 in a invaluable piece of equipment. It is completely bad ass when used with AN/PVS 14, Not to mention the way the IR and tatics used to paint... But I can't get into that too much The M4 is a realiable efective weapon that isn't going away anytime soon. test result after test always come out with yeah the scar is alittle better but not that much and certainly not enough to justify the cost. AK won't even be looked at by our military as it's a old obsolete weapon , Scar ,ACR and couple others I can't remember was all that was considered and scar came out on top but the numbers weren't a landslide or anything. I think in 2013 they want all Renger and special teams to be equiped with SCAR. I wish my wife wouldn't mind me shooting her car so I could make a video to shot what I know as fact that 62 grain green tip goes slap through windshield like butter and into anything at the wheel. Again you have to hit that target but I've been involved to maybe times to hear it won't do it. I remember you saying you had a tracer. Why in a rifle I don't know but anyways the burning tracer tip will go all over and often give the spearence that but bullet bounces deflects of hell sometimes goes straight up.. That is just the burning tip not the round doing it as I explain to my privates.

 

[returningliberty]

Longer reach is an ADVANTAGE!


I think the reverse....


Agreed. Infact, I know of several SWAT teams who went to 9mm AR's due to worry of overpenatration.
Found out that the 9mm penatrated MORE and went back to the .223's

You CAN'T have it both ways!!!!!!

It ether doesn't penatrate.... or it does.

I HAVE a 9mm with a light next to my bed. a Glock 19 with a TRL-1
If I need more... 30 rounds of 7.62x39



Check some of these specs on the ranges... you could make them with an open sited 30-30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QABoEzyBm9w&feature=related



Yes, thiswould matter in a hostage situation. Not an active shooter.

But then... patrol guys don't take those shots very often do they?


Actually I DO disagree. As I said.... it's a mistake to try to run an AK like an AR. It's amusing to watch this realization finally sink in.



Yep... opinion, Buddy of mine is into that... I'm not. It's kinda funny to watch his little 'moves'

Cause they work GREAT.

...Until they don't.


2 seconds is fast enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7hi20TI_jA&feature=related

You forgot one thing... Almost every jam (When they occure) can be fixed in this manner. (Us Marines like KISS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQEW74OMQjM&NR=1


On most other fighting rifles in the world.... it's called a bolt handle! (Vs a cheap piece of Al 'charging handle' that bends when your trying to OPEN the action!)


And more ammo (Which takes more TOT) is needed.


IMHO... No use for one. NVG's and a Red dot do the same thing w/o a line back to you and more cr@p on the gun.

Personal decision... But I know quite a few guys with Quadrails on AK's if you insisted.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcrtrFgDE8&feature=related

Lol If you SPEAR a dude and he doesn't go where you want him to, you're in a whole world of trouble. Now he has the end of your weapon and is probably VERY angry. I've never seen this happen but I can imagine the surprised curses and the combat knives coming out. At that point I would personally stop screwing with the BG and go lethal.

No, on a usual patrol anything outside 100m has people screaming "sniper!" and is being engaged by the gun trucks, but I think it's a useful option to have, Especially since at times the gun trucks are either busy suppressing some Ahole with an RPG or are smoking ruins (IEDs).

Honestly, even though JW is taking my side here, I find the Net regurgitating annoying and fairly useless. I really don't care what study some bean counter ran. What matters to Me is weather the rifle worked when I wanted it to or was able to be cleared quickly and get it back into the fight.

 

[JWG223]

Lol If you SPEAR a dude and he doesn't go where you want him to, you're in a whole world of trouble. Now he has the end of your weapon and is probably VERY angry. I've never seen this happen but I can imagine the surprised curses and the combat knives coming out. At that point I would personally stop screwing with the BG and go lethal.

No, on a usual patrol anything outside 100m has people screaming "sniper!" and is being engaged by the gun trucks, but I think it's a useful option to have, Especially since at times the gun trucks are either busy suppressing some Ahole with an RPG or are smoking ruins (IEDs).

Honestly, even though JW is taking my side here, I find the Net regurgitating annoying and fairly useless. I really don't care what study some bean counter ran. What matters to Me is weather the rifle worked when I wanted it to or was able to be cleared quickly and get it back into the fight.

I see your point, but the military is doing exactly what I am saying they are doing, and justifying it the same way I say they are. Arguing about it is like arguing over whether or not you like the sun shining roughly half the time. All those NAVSEA reports I have posted, well, that's coming down the chain.

The new SOST ammo is nice stuff, too. I hope to shoot some hogs with it, since haji lives a ways away, someone else will have to do that one.

I take what is learned in/observed from combat and dissected by those who study it. As you can see from this thread, multiple people who saw combat have entirely different things to say--that is to say, that in combat, NOTHING goes the same each time. Forming inferences based from it are difficult at best sometimes. As we see here, 2 people have had 2 different experiences with the same platform. I suppose what I am trying to say is that if I want to find out the best round to punch through a windshield, a lab is a better place than the battleground. Then you take that round onto the battleground and see what it does. That is the point that the SOST round is at, and that is how the magazines that are now being shipped came to be--the US military dust trials began in late 2006 in a lab setting.

You need both to gain a comprehensive understanding of things. Sadly (or not?) I chose not to enlist, so I am stuck with the lab side of things and 2nd hand reports from friends. (well, 2nd hand to me, experience to them).

All of these "dry" and "useless" studies are the way that improved equipment finds is way back to the end user who has complained about various things. EXACTLY how to improve it is explored in the lab, and then fielded in various quantity for testing under fire, as it were. You need both. I can relate this to the medical profession, maybe you can't, but it's what I do, so I will. We needed clinical time with patients. We ALSO needed "lab-time" with "dry, boring" paper, books, and formulas.

__________________

Prediction: The SOST ammunition shows much better barrier performance, and takes MUCH LESS time to fragment in a living target and various other simulated tissue than M855. We will soon see reports as such coming from end-users in the field.

Now, I'll sit back and see how that goes. We already know MK262 was regarded as successful, and that is how it came about, but it still sucked on barriers.

 

[SGT_Kramer]

ok ok I'm convinced and I'll start training with my AK. Looks like no more milk and cookies in the winner circle for me.

 

[SpeedRacer]

ok ok I'm convinced and I'll start training with my AK. Looks like no more milk and cookies in the winner circle for me.

If it's any consolation, we have vodka and pirozhkis.