Practicality and tacticality of 12ga. slugs

[tupperware9mm]

This video is of Hickok 45 on you tube, we have corresponded a bit over the past couple of years and he is a crack shot. After watching his video's for a while I have learned that most guns are way more accurate than I am. He is shooting slugs out of a Bennelli Super 90. A lot of the shots he is taking are out to 80 yards, and like mentioned before you're just wacking somebody at that range.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej0SyWlqGLo&playnext_from=TL&videos=qxqD_Ze4KqI[/ame]

On a different note I used to do sound and was curious as to who you play with musically.

 

[Hardballing]

I am not ashamed to say that I have too weak a shoulder to use slugs for self defense shooting. Not necessarily in terms of actually using the weapon on another human being (although follow up shots would be a concern), but training/practicing enough to really feel competent with the weapon. My living situation suits the 00 bk perfectly, I'm very comfortable with the way it patterns at in-the-house distances, and I have much more practice (and desire to keep practicing) with it than if it was full of Buckhammer or other rifled slugs.

I hear ya Brother.

Depending on the shotgun you use, you might try the new Aguila mini shells. A caveat is that they are HIGHLY dependant on what type of shotgun used.

I have been experimenting with these from an FN TPS (which I bought specifically for this after watching a gazillion YouTubes of them in action in this shotgun). In my TPS they are GREAT and I have had zero issues to date. Turns the "normal" 8 shots into 12 and they are available in both slug and buckshot loadings. I understand they are making a buck and ball load too but I have not tested those yet nor located them frankly (got the original boxes from Jim's in BR).

So...while I am still a fan of the loads I mentioned earlier, for the reasons stated, I have found that these mini's pack a ton of whallop out past 50-60 yards and are downright easy on the shoulder. Think low brass 2 3/4" skeet type recoil or less. You can crank these out as fast as you can cycle them and not break your collarbone. I will be experimmenting soon also with low recoil "tactical" slugs from a couple of makers but I haven't cranked them up yet.

Just a thought. Give me a PM if you want some more info on these but they are picky about feeding and will not work in semi's as far as I have seen.

 

[Aberdog1]

I have a Maverick 88 with a 18 1/2 in barrel with sights on it. I can stay inside of a 4inch circle at 25 yrds consistanly. I shot 2 3/4 in shells with a 1oz rifled slug. It does what it's suppose to do

 

[Sin-ster]

I hear ya Brother.

Depending on the shotgun you use, you might try the new Aguila mini shells. A caveat is that they are HIGHLY dependant on what type of shotgun used.

I have been experimenting with these from an FN TPS (which I bought specifically for this after watching a gazillion YouTubes of them in action in this shotgun). In my TPS they are GREAT and I have had zero issues to date. Turns the "normal" 8 shots into 12 and they are available in both slug and buckshot loadings. I understand they are making a buck and ball load too but I have not tested those yet nor located them frankly (got the original boxes from Jim's in BR).

So...while I am still a fan of the loads I mentioned earlier, for the reasons stated, I have found that these mini's pack a ton of whallop out past 50-60 yards and are downright easy on the shoulder. Think low brass 2 3/4" skeet type recoil or less. You can crank these out as fast as you can cycle them and not break your collarbone. I will be experimmenting soon also with low recoil "tactical" slugs from a couple of makers but I haven't cranked them up yet.

Just a thought. Give me a PM if you want some more info on these but they are picky about feeding and will not work in semi's as far as I have seen.

I read an older post of yours that was talking about those, and they do sound promising. I meant to get around to ordering some and giving them a run-- they certainly sound interesting. For reference, the shotgun in question is an 18.5" 870 pump.

I thought about it a bit, and I realized I do have a Knoxx stock on the shotgun now and it does cut back quite a bit on the felt recoil. I haven't given it a run with slugs-- might be time to check that out, actually.

As someone else noted, Buckhammer is a line of Remington shells-- rifled slugs, IIRC. I think they're pretty much a middle of the road round, but I'm not that familiar with shotguns for non-fowl hunting purposes. They might not even be in production anymore? Been a few years since I had the pleasure of messing around with them. They were remarkably accurate at the 50-60 yards I was shooting, however-- and this out of a Mossberg 590 with just a bead up front. Again, pretty sure it's an average slug, but I don't have much to compare them to.

 

[Hardballing]

FWIW, the "guy" at Jim's told me that the TPS specifically and also said IIRC that the 870 could use the "mini's" effectively. As you note, only stroking them thru the action yourself will tell the tale. They were a tad pricey however at IIRC 14.95 for a box of 20? Something like that. I bought like 3 bucks and 3 slugs while I was there for the TPS. They have worked just fine but I don't load them in normal carriers. Due to the small size, I just dump them in a dump pouch for reach and shuck portability. It's working so far but I am seeking an alternate method of carrying LOTS of shotgun rounds for almost immediate deployment.

I don't have them in front of me at the moment, but I have at home some "tactical" buckshot and slug loads that are low brass, 2 3/4" IIRC. These too promised low felt recoil. Damn, just can't remember the brand.

Reason I keep sticking on this thread is that as hurricane season gets going, I'm thinking, more and more, of just sheltering in place. I have been working the shotgun a lot more than usual in prep for that as, imo, "in close" there just anything I own that puts more lead in the air per boom as it were than these weapon types. Drawbacks? Sure, slow to load, not as precise, etc. are all true, but...it sure will make you think thrice to see that big ole hole staring in your direction and for guarding "the home place" I think they have a definate role. At least in my plan. YMMW.

 

[Leonidas]

The mini's won't feed in my 870. Wish they would. I like the idea of having 12 in the tube.

I can't find the link, but there was a fairly oft referenced analysis of SD rounds in various chamberings. Based on surface area of each pellet vs number of pellets, the total wound channel is highest (by something like 15%) in #1 buck. And you have slightly lower risk of over-penetration, but plenty enough to do the job.

Problem is, try to find it. I never could find it in stock. So, I'm stocked in O.

 

[Leonidas]

As far as the #8bird, you're right about it being a column of lead. But it is a column of tiny individual pellets. Yeah, it might not penetrate 2 layers of drywall. By the same token, what if your defensive situation happens in January and the perp is wearing a T-shirt, sweatshirt, maybe a light jacket AND a heavy outer jacket. Are you confident that any of the lead is even going to touch flesh. Now you've got to hope for a face shot or maybe take out his leg to set up a follow-up. Much smaller targets in a stressful situation than center mass. And center mass may well not require follow-up. Besides, I'd rather stop with one than two or three.

 

[themcfarland]

I have used a mossy 500 with a 18.5 barrel to shoot rotweil breneke slugs out to 125 yards and took deer in Illinois with it. neck shots..

I sold it to a guy who didnt believe me.. a junk yard dealer.. he took it, aimed at a trunk lock of a car at 75 yards and took it out. one shot..

food for thought..

 

[Ellis1958]

Every time one of these "Which shotshell for defense use?" threads pops up it starts a discussion that never ends. Here's the problem.

The shotgun is the most versatile of firearms. With that versatility comes the decision of what to use where.

Inside the dwelling defense? Great but it is in an apartment, the 'burbs, or in the middle of BFE country. Just trying to figure out an acceptable load for these three will keep a forum busy for a while. Since you are responsible for every shot and every pellet has a lawyer attached to it penetration is a huge issue. This has to be balanced with using "enough gun" to do the job.

Apartment: Here penetration is top issue. For damn sure I don't want anything leaving the confines of the unit. The innocents living ten feet away from me should be kept as safe as possible. One pellet nicking the kid next door will land you in a whole lot of trouble. The distances will be short. My thinking is that .410 is a viable choice. More to the point the Taurus Judge. Reports are that the new loads from Federal and Winchester designed for the Judge are very good defense rounds. Anything more such as 20ga or 12ga is just too much artillery and will blast through a units walls. Can't take that chance.

Suburbia: Now with a bit of distance between you and innocents you have more options. And typically longer distances to defend. So what? Here we can the option of 12ga and 20ga. Birdshot, buckshot, slugs? Lets throw out slugs right now. Those pups will penetrate multiple car doors. They will sail right out your house and will penetrate into the house across the street without breaking a sweat. Here we can discuss for a while. I see the point of 7.5 and larger birdshot as a balance between not overpenetrating and while still delivering some penetration to the bad guy. I also see the point of birdshot not giving enough penetration to the bad guy so 00 buckshot would do a better job while still keeping overpentration under control. Really is a tough call. Are the houses around you of brick construction? Are the houses on small lots packed tightly together? Got a crib in a 'hood with good sized lots? These situations could sway the decision.

Pipe in Sunlight Country: Unless there is some situation that precludes otherwise I'd load up with 00 buck and not look back.

 

[Ellis1958]

Slugs.
Have you shot your slugs for groups? Yeah, I'm not kidding. We will spend hours at the bench sighting in our rifles and handguns but why is it that we don't do the same for shotguns? OK at a $1 a shot it can get pricey but until you shoot your slugs for groups you don't know what the zero is. Until you know what the zero is you can't hit the target. You also don't know the accuracy of that particular gun, choke, and load combo. I've done my homework and my combo will do 3" at 50yd. What will yours do?

Buckshot.
Have you patterned your buckshot? What is the pattern at .. oh .. 50ft with that Belchfire Super Tackticool load? Don't know? Maybe your gun and load combo has a habit of throwing a pellet or two as wild flyers. Seen that in my guns. If you have chokes you can change what will the pattern do going from Cyl to Mod? Just how far out can you go and still keep the pattern inside a the A Zone (6x11 inches) of a USPSA target?

Please. We can talk till the thread becomes the longest of the forum but nothing except range time will tell you what you need to know about your defense shotgun. Grab a few boxes of everything you can get your hands on and see what your gun will do.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I keep slugs in my work shotty. I don't trust the flight charecteristics of round balls. But truth be told I can't remember the last time I deployed a shotty over a carbine. Accuracy is final etc etc.

 

[Hardballing]

Interesting show this week on Personal Defense TV (and yeah, Gresham is kind of a tool/weenie). Show was on Tactical Shotgun 101 or something like that.

Of greatest interest to me was filmed tests of birdshot loads at in room distances. Keep in mind, unless you're Bill Gates, we're talking feet here, not yards. The shot column on #8 covered a 2" center to center shot, and penetrated only one sheet of drywall, without penetrating another. Food for thought right there.

Of secondary, or heck, maybe even primary interest, was shots, same loading, at 15 feet and 20 feet. Shot spread there was around 2.5"-3" and were accurate enough to take the previously hypothesized "what if a guy had your daughter" headshot described earlier in the thread.

Saw them do it. Have seen this load in reality kill folks at the distances mentioned. I train with it at these distances. And you really don't want a face full of #8 shot on a high brass 12 guage load.

Not if your sane anyway. If you're not? See the show.

Key point I'm trying to make here is that INDOORS is feet,not yards and LOTS of "bird loads" will kill if YOU can make the shot. All without taking out your infant sleeping in the next room, or Grandma getting up to see what the ruckus was about. Just enough power is sometimes enough.

Man, shotguns are SO cool

 

[senseiturtle]

Saw them do it. Have seen this load in reality kill folks at the distances mentioned. I train with it at these distances. And you really don't want a face full of #8 shot on a high brass 12 guage load.

Not if your sane anyway. If you're not? See the show.

Key point I'm trying to make here is that INDOORS is feet,not yards and LOTS of "bird loads" will kill if YOU can make the shot. All without taking out your infant sleeping in the next room, or Grandma getting up to see what the ruckus was about. Just enough power is sometimes enough.

Man, shotguns are SO cool

The same argument for a face full of buckshot.

The question you have to ask yourself is... are you willing to risk it? Are you willing to risk a possible failure to stop?

When you consider the ACTUAL probability that grandma is behind the wall at the precise angle necessary to get struck by a missed shot, it's probably better to err on the side of the immediate safety threat -- the attacker. Please don't take this as ignoring the possibility of hitting an innocent, but if you take the time to examine the angles present in your house, you'll find that it might actually take a "lucky shot" to hit an innocent in the next room.

Examine the angles in your own home, and consider ----
If you hit with birdshot, you might not stop the attacker, even if COM.
If you hit with buckshot, you will more likely stop the attacker, even if non COM.
If you miss, you might not hit grandma.

The original thread was about the utility of slugs... whereas, even if the slug hits COM, it's very likely to keep going through and through. Here's why they're a poor(er) defensive solution, as they might hit attacker AND grandma, leading to increased risk of usage for the same benefit of another style of ammo. Not to mention the increased recoil.


Personally,
I used to keep a 20g loaded... now, if startled I go for 9mm due to experience... but if I can find 10 seconds, I'm getting the AR. .223 penetrates less than the 9mm, and is arguably more deadly.

 

[Dave328]

Interesting show this week on Personal Defense TV (and yeah, Gresham is kind of a tool/weenie). Show was on Tactical Shotgun 101 or something like that.

Annnd a member here!

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I'm getting the AR. .223 penetrates less than the 9mm, and is arguably more deadly.

ain't no argument to it. Pistol cartridges punch tiny holes in things. I prefer to think of them as remote stabbing devices. Rifles on the other hand kill people and break things.

 

[jimdana1942]

I read an article not long ago that Hastings makes a 20 gauge rifled barrel single shot that is quite accurate to 200 yards. I heard that some other makers of single shots are doing the same. I also believe that Hastings makes some 20 gauge rounds for this but I don't remember for sure.

From what I read it packs a devastating punch for even large North American game.

 

[Hardballing]

Annnd a member here!

My sincere apologies. I meant to add a smilie to show kidding on that comment. And I'd "walk a mile" to have some of his weapons so perhaps I'm just jealous.

No offense intended.

 

[Dave328]

My sincere apologies. I meant to add a smilie to show kidding on that comment. And I'd "walk a mile" to have some of his weapons so perhaps I'm just jealous.

No offense intended.

None taken. just a friendly heads up. i am no stranger to footinmouth syndrome.

 

[senseiturtle]

ain't no argument to it. Pistol cartridges punch tiny holes in things. I prefer to think of them as remote stabbing devices. Rifles on the other hand kill people and break things.

I said arguably, because you never know when the 9mm is coming from a GLOCK

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Glock 9mm is more deadlier then say SIG 9mm?