Using FMJ for self defence

[del4]

There was a thread a while back that was about a police shootout. The one officer shot a man with 180 g .40 S&W. Most of his shots only penatrated about an inch. I assume that he was using some kind of expanding bullet. What are your thoughts on using fmj bullets as opposed to jhp. I know that conventional wisdom says that we should use hollow points for defence, but are we sacrificing penatration too much for expansion?

 

[JBP55]

I use HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T in 9mm, .40, .45 all hollow point ammunition and I have no real concerns about penetration with any of the above. Shoot until you shop the threat.

 

[del4]

I use HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T in 9mm, .40, .45 all hollow point ammunition and I have no real concerns about penetration with any of the above. Shoot until you shop the threat.

Well that's the concern. The officer shoot him multiple times, IIRC, he was stoped by another officer with an AR-15.

 

[Speedlace]

Well that's the concern. The officer shoot him multiple times, IIRC, he was stoped by another officer with an AR-15.

I think you are talking about the guy that was hit with 10+ with .40 and 10+ times with .223...?

 

[Skiney]

There was a thread a while back that was about a police shootout. The one officer shot a man with 180 g .40 S&W. Most of his shots only penatrated about an inch. I assume that he was using some kind of expanding bullet. What are your thoughts on using fmj bullets as opposed to jhp. I know that conventional wisdom says that we should use hollow points for defence, but are we sacrificing penatration too much for expansion?

Sounds Good to me,

I don't recall any of the Catrwrights using hollow points and they defended thenselves at least once a week:}

[/IMG]

 

[Speedlace]

Most of his shots only penatrated about an inch. I assume that he was using some kind of expanding bullet.

He was wearing a jacket and shirt during the shooting.

 

[JBP55]

Well that's the concern. The officer shoot him multiple times, IIRC, he was stoped by another officer with an AR-15.

That was a very unusual OIS. Not typical at all and no pistol is a guaranteed one shot man stopper.
On the other hand a local LEO fired one shot from a G34 loaded with 147gr. Ranger T ammunition and the bad guy was DRT.

 

[swamper]

The quality defensive ammunition, as mentioned by JPB55, will/should offer sufficient penetration. FMJ may allow for over-penetration, i.e. whatever is behind the target has a possibility of getting hit as well.

A bad guy tweaking on all sorts of drugs and who has a warrior mindset can probably take a lot of rounds and keep going for a bit. At some point though, something will have to give.

 

[Speedlace]

This the shooting you're talking about:
::NWS::

http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

 

[del4]

Yup, that's the one.

 

[Sin-ster]

Penetration is your first concern when selecting ammo. There are *plenty* of modern JHP loads on the market that accomplish the FBI requirements, including through intermediate barriers. You're sacrificing nothing by using them, but picking up the advantage of bigger wound channels-- a huge plus.

The best designs retain the vast majority of their weight and open up to nearly double their original size. 2 for the price of 1, so to speak-- and that's not something you wanna leave behind out of some random sense of underpenetration.

HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T, PDX-1. The heavier the grain, the better in most cases (although some 124 grain 9mm's are worth investigation). Those are the top performers and the list from which you should make your selection. Walmart frequently carries the PDX line-- it should be a non-issue to find something sufficient, especially with online shopping at your disposal.

While terminal ballistics might be an exact science, things tend to behave erratically from time to time in the real world. Big .45's stop on the crown of some scumbag's skull at close range, well-constructed .40 JHPs clog with some random assortment of fibers and don't open up, Cracky McGee has his heart and lungs liquified and fights on for 60 more seconds, etc. These are rare instances, and latching on to one of them to the point of going against accepted standards is akin to looking for monsters under the bed and some dark magic alternative to fight them off.

Find a pistol of sufficient caliber and quality that you shoot well. Select from the fairly long list of viable defensive ammunition, and run at least 200 through your pistol to make sure it functions well. Train, train, train-- and then train some more to stop the threat. Hope and pray you never need to test the effectiveness of your set up, but be confident than your gear and your skills will see you through to safety.

 

[Emperor]

Penetration is your first concern when selecting ammo. There are *plenty* of modern JHP loads on the market that accomplish the FBI requirements, including through intermediate barriers. You're sacrificing nothing by using them, but picking up the advantage of bigger wound channels-- a huge plus.

The best designs retain the vast majority of their weight and open up to nearly double their original size. 2 for the price of 1, so to speak-- and that's not something you wanna leave behind out of some random sense of underpenetration.

HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T, PDX-1. The heavier the grain, the better in most cases (although some 124 grain 9mm's are worth investigation). Those are the top performers and the list from which you should make your selection. Walmart frequently carries the PDX line-- it should be a non-issue to find something sufficient, especially with online shopping at your disposal.

While terminal ballistics might be an exact science, things tend to behave erratically from time to time in the real world. Big .45's stop on the crown of some scumbag's skull at close range, well-constructed .40 JHPs clog with some random assortment of fibers and don't open up, Cracky McGee has his heart and lungs liquified and fights on for 60 more seconds, etc. These are rare instances, and latching on to one of them to the point of going against accepted standards is akin to looking for monsters under the bed and some dark magic alternative to fight them off.

Find a pistol of sufficient caliber and quality that you shoot well. Select from the fairly long list of viable defensive ammunition, and run at least 200 through your pistol to make sure it functions well. Train, train, train-- and then train some more to stop the threat. Hope and pray you never need to test the effectiveness of your set up, but be confident than your gear and your skills will see you through to safety.

Good stuff here!^

Also try: Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!; Click Click...Use gun as hammer or throw gun: kick assailant; run away screaming!

To save yourself! I sincerely hope that I can actually do it too, when or if it's ever for keeps.

 

[JWG223]

About a year ago I read from a medical examiner on another forum that jhp and fmj wounds he saw looked identical. His only comment was that larger calibers seemed to work better. I don't know if he was discredited or not. Maybe someone else read the same and can comment.

 

[Speedlace]

About a year ago I read from a medical examiner on another forum that jhp and fmj wounds he saw looked identical. His only comment was that larger calibers seemed to work better. I don't know if he was discredited or not. Maybe someone else read the same and can comment.

Do you have a link to forum?

 

[JWG223]

Do you have a link to forum?

give me a bit, it was a while back.

 

[03protege]

Do you have a link to forum?

Not everyone can be an internet ninja like you.

 

[JWG223]

Disregard my last.
Search "observations from actual shootings" on glocktalk.

 

[Sin-ster]

About a year ago I read from a medical examiner on another forum that jhp and fmj wounds he saw looked identical. His only comment was that larger calibers seemed to work better. I don't know if he was discredited or not. Maybe someone else read the same and can comment.

I've had conversations with trauma surgeons and the like to that effect as well.

But it's never a sweeping "always". Just a collection of stories where a JHP didn't expand and punched a hole like you'd expect from an FMJ.

I've heard from the same folks on this very board about the effectiveness of certain rounds-- pulled directly from bodies they were examining. The point being that even if they opened up only a small fraction of the time, why wouldn't you use them?

ETA-- That search criteria pulled up one 8 page thread, the first page of which seemed to have nothing to do with the topic at hand? Call me lazy, but link me the relevant stuff?

 

[swagge1]

Interesting tattoos on the dead assailant.

 

[LongGoneDays]

My 2 carry magazines have defensive ammo. My full sized mags are all loaded up with FMJ. It is a $ thing.
The only reason I really buy into the hype (o har har) about the $25 a box crap is because of the belief that they
have at least a slightly smaller chance of over penetrating.


I've often wondered though about the quality control at the factory. Is the "practice ammo" held to the same standard as the hollow points? Meaning everything other than the projectile is just as good as the high priced stuff?