Using FMJ for self defence

[JWG223]

I used to carry the FMJ mag in my pocket that way it was distinct in location. To be honest I did/do it because I was sitting in a bar I F'ville one night with a bunch of guys who get it and we agreed it was smart. I have never made the switch in a gunfight. Like I said I mostly do it now out habit. Like I said earlier I, or anybody else, would probably be better off with mags filled with Bonded JHPs. One of the guys at the table that night actually made the switch once and before he could test the thory the car he wanted to shoot up was gone.

Mk262 does poorly through some barriers. Windshield glass in particular. It doesn't do as badly as the mnet would have you believe but it can be unpredictable. Unpreeictable is never good in the shooting people buisness. Mk318 is a better all around performer. It isn't as effective against soft targets but is more reliable when shooting through a barrier.barriers. everything is a compromise. I wish they had made mk318 in 70+ gr. I usually carry a mix of 262 and SOST. I put the 262 in Tan mags so I can tell the diff. The Mag in the gun is 262 because I am more likely to encounter a soft target.

I want to stress that 262 isn't bad. It does go through barriers and kill people. It just can be variable. After you remove luck from the equation the rest of a gunfight is controlling variables.

I found JHP's to work better through car doors than FMJ's. I don't know about glass.

JHP's have "sharper" edges and seem to want to glance less. They can also be found in higher velocity loadings, and velocity helps a lot, all other things being similar, when punching through metal. Hence why an AR out-penetrates an AK on mild steel plates in my experience.

From what I saw, bonded 357SIG was the best against the car doors I shot, followed by .40(any) and 9mm (124gr+P), and finally .45ACP(The 230gr +P+ RA45T did okay). The 147gr 9mm was the worst. Often getting hung up between the outer and inner skin of the door.

 

[Sin-ster]

Dad has a CAR-A3 that stabilizes T2 well enough for me to shoot 1.1 MOA with it off a bipod at 100 yards. Temperature was in the 70's. I have heard of a lot of 1/9's stabilizing the T2. However, as you noted, MK262 is a longer bullet. I have not tested it in a 1/9 myself, but have not heard of it stabilizing.

I'm just curious to see how bad it is, quite honestly. I was initially shocked to see the 75 grainers stabilizing and putting up acceptable groups at those ranges; at the time, there wasn't a lot of discussion about it available on the web in terms of "each rifle is different".

It does however prefer 69 grain SMKs, as loaded by Federal (Gold Medal)-- so the general rule holds true.

 

[JWG223]

Oh, I have no doubt that it does happen. It's mass production-- things are going to go wrong.

But whether through better manufacturing or closer QC, it's not nearly as common. Your reports are the first I've ever heard of it (other than the improper propellant in some Federal stuff not long ago).

I have personally seen factory range/plinking stuff with problems, over and over again. Given, it accounts for a lot larger of a sample size-- but I've sifted through enough duty/SD stuff in the meantime to assume I'd have found at least one issue, if the rate of problems was even close to the same.

Like you noted, part of the reason SD stuff has less issues that you know of is because it costs 2-400% as much. Less Ferrari's blow engines than Corvettes, so to speak (even though Ferrari is famous for poor customer support and has blown quite a few $200K motors due to valvetrain issues).

 

[JWG223]

I'm just curious to see how bad it is, quite honestly. I was initially shocked to see the 75 grainers stabilizing and putting up acceptable groups at those ranges; at the time, there wasn't a lot of discussion about it available on the web in terms of "each rifle is different".

It does however prefer 69 grain SMKs, as loaded by Federal (Gold Medal)-- so the general rule holds true.

If it's "bad", it could be FEET off target at 100 yards.

 

[Sin-ster]

I found JHP's to work better through car doors than FMJ's. I don't know about glass.

JHP's have "sharper" edges and seem to want to glance less. They can also be found in higher velocity loadings, and velocity helps a lot, all other things being similar, when punching through metal. Hence why an AR out-penetrates an AK on mild steel plates in my experience.

From what I saw, bonded 357SIG was the best against the car doors I shot, followed by .40(any) and 9mm (124gr+P), and finally .45ACP(The 230gr +P+ RA45T did okay). The 147gr 9mm was the worst. Often getting hung up between the outer and inner skin of the door.

You should have tried it on autoglass. That's where, apparently, things go crazy-- as I'm sure you've read.

I would imagine that more shots end up in the glass than the doors in most shoots around vehicles? I mean, you're aiming at what you can see in most cases-- especially under stress.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

The problem typically isn't penetration its the jacket and the projectile seperating and then neither piece having enough mass to be particularly lethal. Or the velocity to flh particularly straight.

 

[JWG223]

You should have tried it on autoglass. That's where, apparently, things go crazy-- as I'm sure you've read.

I would imagine that more shots end up in the glass than the doors in most shoots around vehicles? I mean, you're aiming at what you can see in most cases-- especially under stress.

I agree, but did not want to make a mess in the front yard, so my "testing", as it were, was relegated to the door.
It was an eye opener to see how crappy most rounds did through the metal car door, and how much "junk" was in the door that stopped even good rounds (like the 270gr GDSP from my .44mag that wouldn't make it through the window-cranking mechanism that took up about 15% of the center of the door).

So far, if forced to go through a car door, my #1 choice would be my 357SIG with Gold Dots, if I couldn't have a rifle. I wouldn't dump the 9mm for carry just for this, though.

 

[JWG223]

The problem typically isn't penetration its the jacket and the projectile seperating and then neither piece having enough mass to be particularly lethal. Or the velocity to flh particularly straight.

RangerT's shed jackets bad in my testing on the car door. Gold Dots were definitely the superior option.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

In my pratcical expirence cars only stop your bullets when your shooting at a bad guy using one for cover. When your forced to use one for cover everything the booger eater shoots passes right through them.

 

[swamper]

Why not just 3 mags of bonded, I guess would be my question?

Unless we're talking rifle and there's a typo, as I'm not aware of any bonded JHP for that platform. SOST is about the only semi-compromise in that regard-- which is why VG favors it, I assume.

Practical or not, what you're talking about is essentially what he was doing with the FMJ. I'd imagine you keep it on hand *if* you get the chance to swap it out, or when you empty a mag and decide it's time to make the swap?

Yeah. It was concerning pistol ammo, not rifle.

Yep. Just kept on hand if presented with the ability to make the swap. I'm just reminded of Awerbuck's commentary about lulls in gunfights, i.e. they are rare.

 

[swamper]

I used to carry the FMJ mag in my pocket that way it was distinct in location. To be honest I did/do it because I was sitting in a bar I F'ville one night with a bunch of guys who get it and we agreed it was smart. I have never made the switch in a gunfight. Like I said I mostly do it now out habit. Like I said earlier I, or anybody else, would probably be better off with mags filled with Bonded JHPs. One of the guys at the table that night actually made the switch once and before he could test the thory the car he wanted to shoot up was gone.

Mk262 does poorly through some barriers. Windshield glass in particular. It doesn't do as badly as the mnet would have you believe but it can be unpredictable. Unpreeictable is never good in the shooting people buisness. Mk318 is a better all around performer. It isn't as effective against soft targets but is more reliable when shooting through a barrier.barriers. everything is a compromise. I wish they had made mk318 in 70+ gr. I usually carry a mix of 262 and SOST. I put the 262 in Tan mags so I can tell the diff. The Mag in the gun is 262 because I am more likely to encounter a soft target.

I want to stress that 262 isn't bad. It does go through barriers and kill people. It just can be variable. After you remove luck from the equation the rest of a gunfight is controlling variables.

Got it. Thanks for the info.

 

[oldman45]

I have worked a lot of shootings over the years and saw a lot of dead people.

The secret is hitting the target. Then the next trick is to hit them with a proper size round.

People have gotten so accustomed to shooting magazine loads of the "spray & pray" method that accuracy went out the window.

If a person does not fall when hit, then he must not be overly impressed with the gun you are using.

I use a 1911 in 45acp. Nobody I know wants to let me shoot at them even if they are wearing every coat they own.

 

[Sin-ster]

Yeah. It was concerning pistol ammo, not rifle.

Yep. Just kept on hand if presented with the ability to make the swap. I'm just reminded of Awerbuck's commentary about lulls in gunfights, i.e. they are rare.

Especially not for civilians!

In a military environment, with large groups engaging and using small squad tactics (on up), I surmise there's time here and there to make little adjustments like swapping out a mag.

Plus, if you run the gun dry-- go for it!

 

[JWG223]

I have worked a lot of shootings over the years and saw a lot of dead people.

The secret is hitting the target. Then the next trick is to hit them with a proper size round.

People have gotten so accustomed to shooting magazine loads of the "spray & pray" method that accuracy went out the window.

If a person does not fall when hit, then he must not be overly impressed with the gun you are using.

I use a 1911 in 45acp. Nobody I know wants to let me shoot at them even if they are wearing every coat they own.

I agree, but even a dozen rounds of .45 gold dot to the torso only **** people off sometimes. Pistols are poor stoppers.

 

[JWG223]

Yes, but the bonded bullets don't do so hot on meat. The very thing that keeps them together through glass/sheet metal also restricts their expansion in soft tissue. The HST is supposed to fix this, but while the test protocols show promise, I haven't seen any actual bullets recovered from a scene yet. So I'm withholding "judgement" on that for now. But its performance in test media is enough to cause me to load all my carry pistols up with it. I have seen photos of some recovered 9mm HST 147gr meat bullets that did an admirable job on several members of a motorcycle gang out west.

Staggering different rounds in a magazine or cylinder is a real bad idea, on several fronts. If you're toting a 9mm and feel the need for the potential ability to shoot through a car, then carry one magazine full of NATO ball, and mark it accordingly so you can tell at a glance. I can see the need for a LEO to do this, and when I carry a 9mm for a "car gun", I have an extra magazine of NATO ball handy for that exact purpose.

But on your person as a CCW citizen in a non-SHTF scenario? Uh, okay, if it floats your boat.

.

.

gold dots I have seen recovered look like they came from gel. Perfect textbook expansion.

 

[JWG223]

Some do; some don't. Remember that idiot who committed suicide by cop against four BRPD officers in Port Allen earlier this year? We dug nine bullets out of him, all 9mm Gold Dots. One was textbook advertising photo grade; the rest displayed various degrees of deformity. And I'm not counting the ones that passed through his body and lodged in his vehicle.

As I've said before... there are NO absolutes in this game. Period.

.

understood.
What barriers/clothing were involved?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Don't believe the Gold Dots are magic. They are bullets. They work well most of the time but nothing is perfect. Just like the Corbon DPX stuff that was supposed to be magical. It works very well most of the time. In my opinion the Olin,and ATK is close enough in performance that I would carry any of it interchangeable. I carry the bonded stuff on duty because of the likelihood that any shooting I'm in will involve a vehicle. If I was a civilian I might opt to carry traditional JHPs for the reasons LSP listed. But hey as I already admitted I cling to the past and keep a stick of NATO Ball in my pocket so what do I know...

 

[JWG223]

Don't believe the Gold Dots are magic. They are bullets. They work well most of the time but nothing is perfect. Just like the Corbon DPX stuff that was supposed to be magical. It works very well most of the time. In my opinion the Olin,and ATK is close enough in performance that I would carry any of it interchangeable. I carry the bonded stuff on duty because of the likelihood that any shooting I'm in will involve a vehicle. If I was a civilian I might opt to carry traditional JHPs for the reasons LSP listed. But hey as I already admitted I cling to the past and keep a stick of NATO Ball in my pocket so what do I know...

Meh. I just think handguns suck and marksmanship trumped all. Except for the 5.7x28. That one is like a rifle round and kills instantly!

 

[louis488]

I can't believe that I'm the first to say this.

The LEO's should've been using a FiveseveN. Instead of the weak and under powered .40 S&W.

That is all....

Dave

no they should have use a real 10mm instead of 10mm light

 

[Skiney]

5.7x28 All you'll ever need to SUCCEED.

no they should have use a real 10mm instead of 10mm light

I MUST AGREE with Dave

Below is all you need to SUCCEED- PERIOD:}

[/URL][/IMG]