Using FMJ for self defence
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http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44227&highlight=observations+actual+shootings
This was from the original GT thread, which is now locked, dead, and buried unless you are an admin there:
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Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Without question.
Shoot enough factory FMJ and you'll see evidence of it. Peeled rims, primers seated too high or without anvils/compound, primers seated upside down or sideways, bullet set back, deformed projectiles, damaged brass, etc.
I've never even so much as heard of duty/carry ammo showing up with these issues.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Good stuff, thanks!
And I essentially said, prior to reading it, what Roberts surmised in that post. Three cheers for me!
Some years ago I took to carrying a mag filled with FMJ rounds. I did so after some long conversations about shooting at and through cars. I still do it now although I will admit that with the advent of bonded JHPs its probably no longer necessary. Carrying FMJ for self defense is giving yourself a handicap. Why would you do it?
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Was that with a pistol, rifle, or both-- out of curiosity?
That was old school teaching with some before quality bonded ammunition arrived for pistols. Either carry a back up magazine with FMJ or stagger the FMJ and HP rounds in the same magazine in pistols.
Pistol. I don't carry JHP Rifle Bullets. It's not that there is anything wrong with some of them, the 75gr TAP stuff for instance, it's just that I dance with them that brung me. I also don't think that at the velocities you see out of rifles there is much of a lethality gap between Mk318 SOST or MK262 and the JHP Stuff. My feelings would be different if I HAD to carry 55gr bullets.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Indeed.
I know you stocked up on that SOST recently. I was short on funds when that boat sailed-- the Mk 262 took it outta me!
JBP55 said:
Huh, I learn something new almost every day. Clever solution.
I never staggered the mag because I wanted to be in control of what bullet I was using when. That's probably stupid but it made sense to me once. Your well served with the 262 don't sweat it. I have seen that OTM Bullet solve a whole bunch of problems that will be staying solved. The Mk12 Mod 1 firing the Mk262 is one of the most lethal small arms platforms I have ever seen. The speed a which someone who can run the gun can follow up shoot and switch between targets is amazing. It makes sense when you look at the platform, essentially it s a 3-Gun Race Rifle.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Indeed!
I just prefer the lower speeds at which it'll come apart, as my rifles are all 16". It's also stupid accurate in the BH 5.56 loading out of my 1:7.
Yet to test it in the 1:9, but I expect keyholes. The only reason it occurs to me to try is that the 1:9-in-question stabilizes 75 grain TAP out to 125 yards, and still holds a fairly reasonable group. Lucky, I guess-- it must be closer to 1:8.
Would there be anything wrong with carrying two mags of JHP (one in weapon, the other in a pouch) and say a third mag of bonded JHP (rear-most pouch)? I've often toyed with that idea. The only issue I would see would be "finding that lull in the fight" to do a tactical reload to bonded JHP if they were needed. As I've never been in a firefight, I'm not sure how practical that would be. Seems it's a good idea on paper but a whole other ball of wax in the real world.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Why not just 3 mags of bonded, I guess would be my question?
Unless we're talking rifle and there's a typo, as I'm not aware of any bonded JHP for that platform. SOST is about the only semi-compromise in that regard-- which is why VG favors it, I assume.
Practical or not, what you're talking about is essentially what he was doing with the FMJ. I'd imagine you keep it on hand *if* you get the chance to swap it out, or when you empty a mag and decide it's time to make the swap?
A lot of TAP T2 was recalled a while back. I have seen pictures of Ranger ammo with inverted primers, etc.
It happens.
I have read that MK262 doesn't do well through barriers. Having fired some 5.56 at a car door that wouldn't go all the way through because it fragmented on the outer skin, and was stopped by the inner, I think this claim might have merit. Have you personal experience with the MK262 through any type of barrier?
I like the SOST because while not "The Best", it will get the job done regardless of the situation.
Dad has a CAR-A3 that stabilizes T2 well enough for me to shoot 1.1 MOA with it off a bipod at 100 yards. Temperature was in the 70's. I have heard of a lot of 1/9's stabilizing the T2. However, as you noted, MK262 is a longer bullet. I have not tested it in a 1/9 myself, but have not heard of it stabilizing.
I used to carry the FMJ mag in my pocket that way it was distinct in location. To be honest I did/do it because I was sitting in a bar I F'ville one night with a bunch of guys who get it and we agreed it was smart. I have never made the switch in a gunfight. Like I said I mostly do it now out habit. Like I said earlier I, or anybody else, would probably be better off with mags filled with Bonded JHPs. One of the guys at the table that night actually made the switch once and before he could test the thory the car he wanted to shoot up was gone.
Mk262 does poorly through some barriers. Windshield glass in particular. It doesn't do as badly as the mnet would have you believe but it can be unpredictable. Unpreeictable is never good in the shooting people buisness. Mk318 is a better all around performer. It isn't as effective against soft targets but is more reliable when shooting through a barrier.barriers. everything is a compromise. I wish they had made mk318 in 70+ gr. I usually carry a mix of 262 and SOST. I put the 262 in Tan mags so I can tell the diff. The Mag in the gun is 262 because I am more likely to encounter a soft target.
I want to stress that 262 isn't bad. It does go through barriers and kill people. It just can be variable. After you remove luck from the equation the rest of a gunfight is controlling variables.
Mk262 does poorly through some barriers. Windshield glass in particular. It doesn't do as badly as the mnet would have you believe but it can be unpredictable. Unpreeictable is never good in the shooting people buisness. Mk318 is a better all around performer. It isn't as effective against soft targets but is more reliable when shooting through a barrier.barriers. everything is a compromise. I wish they had made mk318 in 70+ gr. I usually carry a mix of 262 and SOST. I put the 262 in Tan mags so I can tell the diff. The Mag in the gun is 262 because I am more likely to encounter a soft target.
I want to stress that 262 isn't bad. It does go through barriers and kill people. It just can be variable. After you remove luck from the equation the rest of a gunfight is controlling variables.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Oh, I have no doubt that it does happen. It's mass production-- things are going to go wrong.
But whether through better manufacturing or closer QC, it's not nearly as common. Your reports are the first I've ever heard of it (other than the improper propellant in some Federal stuff not long ago).
I have personally seen factory range/plinking stuff with problems, over and over again. Given, it accounts for a lot larger of a sample size-- but I've sifted through enough duty/SD stuff in the meantime to assume I'd have found at least one issue, if the rate of problems was even close to the same.
