Came across this "What Is the Best Weapon for Home Defense?"

[Sin-ster]

Now you're just trying to rationalize it to yourself.

Pot. Kettle. Black?

 

[Bradb4178]

I believe it depends on your room layout. a lot of people use pistols because they are easy to store, such as next to the bedside in a safe or behind the bed. Some people have a little more room in their room and keep a short barreled shotgun with a pistol grip shooting home defense rounds or 20 guage shells. I have talked to people who use both because they have more room or lack their off room. i could see myself using both.

 

[Hattrick 22]

Been just sitting back and reading for the most part but it almost looks like its time to grab the pop corn and a recliner. On a side note i went to the gun show this sunday and fell in love with the s.c.a.r they had there. Anyone have any opinions on them as a "long gun" i had been looking the dpms and rock river piston types (in the hopes that i am actually able to afford one of these things...maybe once i am done with clinicals). Sorry not trying to hijack the thread but it did get me to look at he bigger picture and things from different perspectives granted more training would be helpful but i would be lying if i said it wasn't just the badass look of them that has had my attention for a few months now.

 

[JWG223]

Been just sitting back and reading for the most part but it almost looks like its time to grab the pop corn and a recliner. On a side note i went to the gun show this sunday and fell in love with the s.c.a.r they had there. Anyone have any opinions on them as a "long gun" i had been looking the dpms and rock river piston types (in the hopes that i am actually able to afford one of these things...maybe once i am done with clinicals). Sorry not trying to hijack the thread but it did get me to look at he bigger picture and things from different perspectives granted more training would be helpful but i would be lying if i said it wasn't just the badass look of them that has had my attention for a few months now.

This is the most comprehensive source of data you are likely to encounter on the SCAR:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62889

Personally, I like my AR and so that's what I bought. You will catch a lot of emotion and opinion from a lot of people. Pick your own path after reviewing the evidence.

If you buy an AR, my OPINION is that you should avoid stuff like BM and DPMS regardless, and pistons all together in the AR platform. If it's a DPMS or Bushmaster or SCAR...SCAR is the answer. It's like asking if you should buy a loaded Daewoo or a base BMW M3. Not even a question.

 

[jimdana1942]

How about a baby Browning with Glazers?

 

[Sin-ster]

How about a baby Browning with Glazers?

If you have a lot of little dogs breaking into houses in your area-- go for it.

 

[Renegade]

About that woman and her baby in the trailer in OK, I wonder how much hearing loss she or the baby suffered by using her shotgun instead of her pistol.

I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but I'll relate my personal experiences whilst firing a few rounds New Year's Eve outdoors with no hearing protection (disclaimer: no rounds were fired into the air). First, my son and I fired a couple of .22 rifles and my 12-gauge pump. Then, we went to the pistols... both of the pistols (a .22 revolver and a 9mm pistol) were much louder (perceived) than any of the long guns. We actually stopped shooting pistols and went back to the rifles and shotgun because the pistols were making our ears ring. Perhaps the results would be different indoors.

How many people actually use assault weapon type carbines for self defense in the home? I'm talking AR/M4/AK. I know the 5.56 is a proven round with a lot of stopping power, but from a legal point I've never even considered using my AR as a home defense weapon, it stays in the safe. Is this a valid concern?

Justified use of force is justfied use of force. Is a 55gr 5.56 round really any more evil than 00 Buck?

Assuming it's a clean shoot. If anything is in the grey area, I could see some DA's having issue with it, especially if you Zombie Killer plastered all over your rifle...

I agree that it's a valid concern. It's amazing how perception can affect reality, both in the minds of investigators and the media (jury pool). I'd be more inclined to present an "innocent homeowner with a hunting arm" persona than "Zombie Killer with an AK looking for an excuse to use it."

Not to mention, I'd MUCH rather the police be holding my <$200 Shotgun than my >$600 "Assault Rifle" as evidence until they conclude the investigation.

 

[Rm105629]

I currently have a 92FS loaded with gold dots in my nightstand. Not the best possible setup (compared to a shotgun or carbine), but I'm pretty confident in it because of plenty of trigger time. Im sure that future training courses would be a good investment, though

 

[Hattrick 22]

This is the most comprehensive source of data you are likely to encounter on the SCAR:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62889

Personally, I like my AR and so that's what I bought. You will catch a lot of emotion and opinion from a lot of people. Pick your own path after reviewing the evidence.

If you buy an AR, my OPINION is that you should avoid stuff like BM and DPMS regardless, and pistons all together in the AR platform. If it's a DPMS or Bushmaster or SCAR...SCAR is the answer. It's like asking if you should buy a loaded Daewoo or a base BMW M3. Not even a question.

Thanks for the link bro ill be reading up on a few models. I know nothing about them other than I would like to own one. Time to go some reading thanks.

 

[Sin-ster]

I currently have a 92FS loaded with gold dots in my nightstand. Not the best possible setup (compared to a shotgun or carbine), but I'm pretty confident in it because of plenty of trigger time. Im sure that future training courses would be a good investment, though

That raises an important point as well.

I'm not sure how it speaks to RM's experience, but in general-- you're better off with a weapon you know how to run well than one with which you are unfamiliar.

I'd rather have a 6 shot .22 that was working (or that I could get working in a hurry) than a super-duper carbine with a double feed that I had no clue how to clear...

 

[Sin-ster]

This is the most comprehensive source of technical and theoretical data you are likely to encounter on the SCAR:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=62889

FIFY.

Based on observable fact and sound logic though it may be, there's a lot of conjecture in those posts that may or may not apply to real world use.

Assuming he's 100% correct in his analysis about wear cycles, parts breakage and the effects of temperature-- just how many rounds, and under what conditions, are we talking about here?

Maybe after 100k rounds, mag dump after mag dump, in a 24 hour period, one gun would be in pieces and the other still chugging along. But across the typical rifle's lifetime, in the hands of the typical civilian (since that was his focus), do you really think those differences are going to matter?

There's a huge data pool on AR15 use, abuse and breakage under actual "field conditions" and levels of use. There's a little on the SCAR platform as well. I noticed the issue of walking zero's and shearing of the folding stock pins was left out of his discussion. That's probably something that a machinist/engineer should look into, in terms of long term durability. And while his point about "available parts" in relation to the presence of each platform within the civilian market is certainly valid... what does it matter to someone who has their rifle take a crap today/tomorrow/a year from now, and they were unable to have parts on hand to fix it?

The guy could be spot on with his assessments, for all I know. At this point in time, however-- I'm just not buying it. And a lot of folks (FAR more qualified than I am to make that assessment) seem to agree.

Find me something on a side-by-side, multiple gun comparison across several months of professional training courses, or a tour of duty, or a dedicated "torture test", and I'd feel a lot better about the data.

 

[Hattrick 22]

I'm more or less trying to find some info on what might be a good model/brand that will work well. He talked the scar up well and made some good points but that's still a hefty price tag for someone that doesn't make brash or indulgent buys. I always find myself searching the hell out of something and comparing them in person. I guess the reason being is that I would hate to regret buying something that I would later hate myself for not looking into it well enough if that makes any sense. Only problem I find is that when asking just out in the open (forum post) I get a few good ideas then it turban into one of those this vs./better than that battles. I love getting an un biased view on several different things instead of just one side by side. If anyone can point me in the right direction or has a good one to recommend looking into shoot me an pm it would be much appreciated.

Granted I won't be buying one soon or until I hit the lottery. Nevertheless, I like reading up and being somewhat knowledgeable of what I am glad handling etc when I am potentially looking to consider saving up for something.

Thanks

Bryan

 

[Sin-ster]

I'm more or less trying to find some info on what might be a good model/brand that will work well. He talked the scar up well and made some good points but that's still a hefty price tag for someone that doesn't make brash or indulgent buys. I always find myself searching the hell out of something and comparing them in person. I guess the reason being is that I would hate to regret buying something that I would later hate myself for not looking into it well enough if that makes any sense. Only problem I find is that when asking just out in the open (forum post) I get a few good ideas then it turban into one of those this vs./better than that battles. I love getting an un biased view on several different things instead of just one side by side. If anyone can point me in the right direction or has a good one to recommend looking into shoot me an pm it would be much appreciated.

Granted I won't be buying one soon or until I hit the lottery. Nevertheless, I like reading up and being somewhat knowledgeable of what I am glad handling etc when I am potentially looking to consider saving up for something.

Thanks

Bryan

Eek. I hope I didn't contribute to that "thread devolvement".

It's obviously going to be up to you in terms of what you purchase, and what your wallet can stand! Just know that a "comprehensive source of information" may be anything but-- that's my only suggestion.

FWIW, I put ~3 mags through a 16, thanks to a gentlemen who was nice enough to let me beat it up a bit on the square range. It ran fine, of course-- and was as accurate as I could manage, shooting off hand at speed. (Wasn't trying to group it-- just get a feel for how it lifted, swung, and went bang.) The safety switch had me guessing a bit at first, and I was keenly aware of the issues with the reciprocating charging handle-- these can both be trained around, if you're so inclined. The recoil impulse has been described as simply "different", and not better or worse; I actually thought it was a touch flatter shooting than your standard M4gery, especially of the garden variety carbine length gas system. (Not so much my Middie, but I didn't have it on hand for direct comparison.) The guy's choice of optic and mount when coupled with the stock and cheek riser did not work well for me, at all-- but that can be fixed easily enough. My final assessment was that it really didn't have a lot going for it that would make me swap from the AR platform-- especially with the price tag! Reading about the parts availability and potential concerns with breakage only strengthened that point, along with the absence of caliber conversions upon which the SCAR had initially been sold. (I think the first one is scheduled to come out sometime this year, in fact.)

I know a grand total of 1 person who has fielded one, and have only briefly spoken to a handful of folks who have been exposed to them. In the end, that's a small data sample and amounts to hearsay more than anything else-- but the consensus was about the same. I've not so much as read a single informed, experienced assessment that declared the shooter was blown away by the platform, so take that for what it's worth.

If you're not working with unlimited funds, it's all about "juice for the squeeze". In the end, it'll be up to you to make the decision!

 

[JWG223]

FIFY.

Based on observable fact and sound logic though it may be, there's a lot of conjecture in those posts that may or may not apply to real world use.

Assuming he's 100% correct in his analysis about wear cycles, parts breakage and the effects of temperature-- just how many rounds, and under what conditions, are we talking about here?

Maybe after 100k rounds, mag dump after mag dump, in a 24 hour period, one gun would be in pieces and the other still chugging along. But across the typical rifle's lifetime, in the hands of the typical civilian (since that was his focus), do you really think those differences are going to matter?

There's a huge data pool on AR15 use, abuse and breakage under actual "field conditions" and levels of use. There's a little on the SCAR platform as well. I noticed the issue of walking zero's and shearing of the folding stock pins was left out of his discussion. That's probably something that a machinist/engineer should look into, in terms of long term durability. And while his point about "available parts" in relation to the presence of each platform within the civilian market is certainly valid... what does it matter to someone who has their rifle take a crap today/tomorrow/a year from now, and they were unable to have parts on hand to fix it?

The guy could be spot on with his assessments, for all I know. At this point in time, however-- I'm just not buying it. And a lot of folks (FAR more qualified than I am to make that assessment) seem to agree.

Find me something on a side-by-side, multiple gun comparison across several months of professional training courses, or a tour of duty, or a dedicated "torture test", and I'd feel a lot better about the data.

Here is what an end-user has to say about the weapon, and you are right, an engineering perspective is TOTALLY different--which is why the SCAR program shat the bed and the M4 soldiers on

I though that I answered this one?

I have shot the SCAR enough to say that it's a failure in my books. The entire scar program was railroaded to begin with!

The weapon produces the most felt recoil out of any piston gun available. The reciprocating charging handle is probably the single biggest mistake that FN made apart from making pistols!

The overall size of the gun is way too big. When all other manufacturers are going smaller, FN are going bigger?

The buttstock although a copy of the HK XM8 project gun is poor in design.

The only good thing I can say about the SCAR is that even though FN took the operating system from another gun, it works really well. Because of the large operating rod, the weapon can not produce a bolt override so that is a plus!

Other than that, the SCAR has no real advantages over the M4 be it a DI or Piston gun.

I think that FN should stick to making machine guns because they are the best at it. That is their market.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97495

 

[JWG223]

By George, I think he nailed it!

.

Yeah, but I can't be seen agreeing with him in public.

 

[Sin-ster]

Here is what an end-user has to say about the weapon, and you are right, an engineering perspective is TOTALLY different--which is why the SCAR program shat the bed and the M4 soldiers on


http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97495

That's one review, for sure-- and for the most part, it correlates with all of those I've read, and the direct conversations I've had with people who either ran them in anger, or had direct contact with those that did.

Most of them are not inclined to call it a "complete failure", but essentially agree that there's not much (if anything) that it offers that the M4 will not. Especially for the complication (new manual of arms, weight, size, figuring out how to get the best out of the ergos, price, etc.) of adopting it.

 

[my-rifle]

This is the same guy that wrote very smugly that he hasn't carried a gun while in N.O. in his 40~ yrs and makes it out alive. To think what a paranoid redneck I am carrying a gun into the murder capital of the country.

Now training is just something silly we do because, let's face it () it's something fun to do.



I stole this off another website...

The Phases of Surrender
The first phase of surrender is failing to be armed, trained and committed to fight. We are prepared to surrender when we are unprepared to resist.

The second phase of surrender is failing to be alert. You must see trouble coming in order to have time to respond. The warning may be less than one second but it will be there and it must be recognized and acted upon immediately.

The Third phase of surrender is giving up your weapons.

The last phase of surrender is up to the monsters who have taken control of your life and perhaps the lives of your loved ones. The last phase of surrender is out of your hands.

Good to see you think for yourself.

 

[my-rifle]

He's that odd liberal who hates himself. (By that I mean one who likes guns.)

So what makes you falsely believe that a liberal person can't like guns? Sounds like you're limiting yourself. Try to open your mind instead of using someone else's thoughts as your own.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

So what makes you falsely believe that a liberal person can't like guns? Sounds like you're limiting yourself. Try to open your mind instead of using someone else's thoughts as your own.

(Puts on best Foghorn Leghorn voice) "That's a Joke Son! You missed it!"

Obviously I DO believe you can... I said you did!
We see who doesn't have an open mind!

(And PLEASE, show me where I used someone elses thoughts!)

I like you dude, but your liberal side is showing!

 

[JWG223]

So what makes you falsely believe that a liberal person can't like guns? Sounds like you're limiting yourself. Try to open your mind instead of using someone else's thoughts as your own.

Liberals can and do like firearms. The thing is, you think it is "bad" of you to actually learn to use them more effectively because you have a family.
Sounds like you don't like them/value them much.