Single or double action? Opinions wanted.

[schnugee]

Background - after a particularly trying afternoon at work, I get a call from my friend & roommate's wife. She heard noises and is afraid someone else is inside the apartment. Figuring better safe than sorry, I rush home, calling the property management staff on the way to explain the situation. I arrive home, rush up the stairs to the door, and see one of the ladies from the office outside the apartment. I identify myself, produce my key and unlock the front door. I enter and proceed directly to my room, and my Taurus PT99. On a daily basis, the weapon stays near my bed, rounds in the magazine but not in chamber, safety engaged. I disengage the safety, rack the slide to chamber a round and go about sweeping the apartment or any signs of a threat. In the USAF, I was trained to keep my finger out of the trigger guard completely until a target (and what fell behind it) was properly identified. My preference is to seat my index finger tip into the space between the slide and the takedown button. I made my way to my roommate's wife, identified myself and asked her to stay where she was until I had completed my sweep. There were knocks at the front door, but I chose to focus on the task at hand rather than heed the knocking. After the initial sweep was complete (no evidence of intruder or intrusion) I made my way back through the apartment to double check some closets, etc. I come back out into the living room to discover that my roommate's wife had opened the door to let the lady from the apartment office, and an LEO inside.

I come walking into view with a handgun drawn, pointed down at a 45 degree angle, away from all persons. The LEO and I see each other, and he issues an order for me to de-cock the handgun. I responded, "absolutely" and proceeded to remove the magazine, remove the chambered round, and safety the weapon before setting it down.

What happened next is what took my by surprise: The LEO begins to instruct me that I shouldn't be carrying an automatic pistol in single action, or "cocked." I should leave it in double action to prevent accidental discharge. My understanding is that all internal hammer semi-autos can not be loaded unless they are in single action. A Beretta 92 can be de-cocked using the de-cock / safety lever, then have the safety moved back into fire. My PT99 does not function this way. The PT99 safety rotates up into the slide to go safe, similar to the way I have seen the 1911 safety work.

Said all that to ask this: is it the general consensus of the pistol shooting community to never carry a pistol in single-action mode, when a double-action option is present?

 

[spanky]

My opinion is to have a gun that makes that choice a non-question.

 

[Gus McCrae]

As long as you keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to fire, there is no issue with any mode.

 

[Sin-ster]

My opinion is to have a gun where that isn't even a question.

He loves him some striker fired!

I believe he assumed you had a round chambered when you picked up the gun, and pulled the hammer back before initiating your sweep. Even if you explained you had no decocker, he still might have insisted it best that you lower the hammer manually-- gag.

I don't have the experience or training to really have much weight behind my opinions. That said, while I do understand his point, I have to disagree.

I want my first shot to count. Speaking from reasonably extensive range experience, it takes a lot of work to be accurate with an auto DA pull. The transition back to SA is not exactly simple, either. I find I'm more likely to snatch the trigger or anticipate when a DA pull is thrown into the mix.

It's the main reason I don't carry my 92F/S or P226-- I support Spanky's stance, and go with a Glock or M&P. In your case, however, there is a very reasonable option-- "cocked and locked", or Stage 1 (I think that's what the 1911 lovers call it). Hammer back and safety engaged, so long as like a 1911, your drawstroke and grip naturally deactivates the safety. Otherwise, you've got to practice, practice, practice. My new FNP 45 Tactical has this function-- one of the many reasons I bought it, in fact. That's only for carry or "at rest", of course-- when it hits your hand, it's rocking and rolling with your main safety (trigger finger) still "engaged".

In your case, there was a possible threat imminent and I see no problem with the gun being readied in SA. What makes it any different from a 1911 at that point, which has been drawn to deal with a potential hidden threat? Or a Glock with a 3.5#, or my trigger-worked M&P with a 4.5 lb pull? Would he have told you, "You shouldn't own those guns" if you had come out with one instead of your Taurus?

 

[spanky]

Your first mistake was taking gun advice from a cop.

 

[Sin-ster]

Your first mistake was taking gun advice from a cop.

What was he carrying, out of curiosity? Glock, I'm guessing?

 

[Gus McCrae]

Your first mistake was taking gun advice from a cop.

He probably should have bitch slapped the cop and told him to sit down while he finished what he was doing.


I don't think any of it matters.... striker, SA, DA, SA/DA, Revolver..... as long as you keep your finger out of the trigger until you are ready to fire and you are familiar with the platform (IE use it alot).

Still, if you had a Glock/M&P/XD there would be no visible scary cocked hammer that the cop would be able to see and he wouldn't have said anything.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

If your weapon has a DA, you should carry it that way, especially since you were "sweeping" an occupied residence and anyone jumping from a room or "letting" someone in could cause a startle response. More importantly, you should practice firing that way so that you are prepared to respond. When you bypass a "safety" function of a firearm, you are in some courts displaying a degree of negligence based on the premise that you are not operating the weapon how it was "designed" to be operated. that is of course open to interpretation....and that is what lawyers do. There is a ton wrong with the story that you told, the least of which s the fact that you may have been carrying a SA/DA gun in SA mode while "sweeping" a residence.

I am not trying to be an ass, but you seriously have some issues with your response. Some of the things I see are:

1. Why was your gun locked in the house unloaded and you had to run through an area that in your opinion required "sweeping" to get to the gun to do said "sweeping"? Do you have a permit, or is there some other circumstance prohibiting you from having your firearm on your person?

2. You should not be sweeping the house if all innocents are out. Stay outside and call 911. That is how you get shot in the face. Rushing in to extract a child or something maybe, but even that is under certain circumstances.

Thanks

3. Why do you not have a round in the chamber?

4. WHy was your roomate's wife still in the apartment if there was enough of a threat to make you rush through the unknown danger area to grab your Taurus to do a "sweep"?

5. What was your logic for not just waiting outside and calling the police?

6. How old are you and what did you do in the USAF?

Again, I am not flaming you, but you asked an honest question, so I am giving you an honest answer. Your story kind of sounds like someone who hears a bump in the night and click-clacs claymores in the front yard and initiates full evac.

 

[schnugee]

Plans are to pick up a Glock 17 for general pistol use, and a glock 26 for concealed carry. I got a good deal on the PT99 here on the forum, so went with the familiarity of the design to at least have something. I'd take the loaded PT99 over a plan to buy a glock & stern language any day. Some medical expenses are delaying the glock purchases longer than expected

I found the "advice" to be rather illogical, so thought I'd ask here for a more well rounded perspective.

 

[Gus McCrae]

If your weapon has a DA, you should carry it that way, especially since you were "sweeping" an occupied residence and anyone jumping from a room or "letting" someone in could cause a startle response. More importantly, you should practice firing that way so that you are prepared to respond. When you bypass a "safety" function of a firearm, you are in some courts displaying a degree of negligence based on the premise that you are not operating the weapon how it was "designed" to be operated. that is of course open to interpretation....and that is what lawyers do. There is a ton wrong with the story that you told, the least of which s the fact that you may have been carrying a SA/DA gun in SA mode while "sweeping" a residence.

I am not trying to be an ass, but you seriously have some issues with your response. Some of the things I see are:

1. Why was your gun locked in the house unloaded and you had to run through an area that in your opinion required "sweeping" to get to the gun to do said "sweeping"? Do you have a permit, or is there some other circumstance prohibiting you from having your firearm on your person?

2. You should not be sweeping the house if all innocents are out. Stay outside and call 911. That is how you get shot in the face. Rushing in to extract a child or something maybe, but even that is under certain circumstances.

Thanks

3. Why do you not have a round in the chamber?

4. WHy was your roomate's wife still in the apartment if there was enough of a threat to make you rush through the unknown danger area to grab your Taurus to do a "sweep"?

5. What was your logic for not just waiting outside and calling the police?

6. How old are you and what did you do in the USAF?

Again, I am not flaming you, but you asked an honest question, so I am giving you an honest answer. Your story kind of sounds like someone who hears a bump in the night and click-clacs claymores in the front yard and initiates full evac.

All good points...... I'm not sure I agree with the startle response as I'd think that if you are startled enough to pull the trigger on a SA gun, you'd probably pull the trigger on a Glock or something else just as easy (close enough IMO). I'm really splitting hairs here though.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Plans are to pick up a Glock 17 for general pistol use, and a glock 26 for concealed carry. I got a good deal on the PT99 here on the forum, so went with the familiarity of the design to at least have something. I'd take the loaded PT99 over a plan to buy a glock & stern language any day. Some medical expenses are delaying the glock purchases longer than expected

I found the "advice" to be rather illogical, so thought I'd ask here for a more well rounded perspective.

When you get a second, could you please answer the questions I asked so we can get a better picture of your reasoning behind you r actions? thanks

 

[Nolacopusmc]

All good points...... I'm not sure I agree with the startle response as I'd think that if you are startled enough to pull the trigger on a SA gun, you'd probably pull the trigger on a Glock or something else just as easy (close enough IMO). I'm really splitting hairs here though.

That is quite possible, but the trigger pull required on the double action stroke, especially for those Taurus', versus the single is significantly different.

Furthermore, most people train with a DA first shot, so if you are someone who actually practices, and then do something different, there is a much higher probability to jerk a shot from the unanticipated light trigger pull.

i agree that is you do not want a DA gun, get a Glock or Xd or other striker fired.

 

[Sin-ster]

That is quite possible, but the trigger pull required on the double action stroke, especially for those Taurus', versus the single is significantly different.

Furthermore, most people train with a DA first shot, so if you are someone who actually practices, and then do something different, there is a much higher probability to jerk a shot from the unanticipated light trigger pull.

i agree that is you do not want a DA gun, get a Glock or Xd or other striker fired.

Yay, I got those points right!

I understand what you're saying-- especially in terms of court/jury interpretation of negligence.

That said, is it really "less safe" to have a weapon in SA when there's a DA feature available? The advertised pull weight of my P226 is 4.5 in SA, which I believe is the same as the Glock? My M&P was measured in the same basic range (I forget the exact weight) after the trigger was cleaned up. The Glock's pull is a bit longer than the SA, to be sure-- but the M&Ps is not, and it breaks like glass.

The 1911 would be the best example, I suppose, as it's SAO. Unless you're supposed to keep the safety activated after you draw? I thought that was a no-no procedure-- not to mention difficult, with a thumbs-forward grip.

I guess I'm comparing apples to oranges to pears, but in terms of "safe handling", should he really have had it in DA?

 

[honestlou]

All good points...... I'm not sure I agree with the startle response as I'd think that if you are startled enough to pull the trigger on a SA gun, you'd probably pull the trigger on a Glock or something else just as easy (close enough IMO). I'm really splitting hairs here though.

I don't think you're splitting hairs-- but I think a DA revolver or Sig, for example, would take more than a "startle response". I like them for that reason.

To the original question, carry decocked if that is an option, and ditto everything Nolacop said.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Yay, I got those points right!

I understand what you're saying-- especially in terms of court/jury interpretation of negligence.

That said, is it really "less safe" to have a weapon in SA when there's a DA feature available? The advertised pull weight of my P226 is 4.5 in SA, which I believe is the same as the Glock? My M&P was measured in the same basic range (I forget the exact weight) after the trigger was cleaned up. The Glock's pull is a bit longer than the SA, to be sure-- but the M&Ps is not, and it breaks like glass.

The 1911 would be the best example, I suppose, as it's SAO. Unless you're supposed to keep the safety activated after you draw? I thought that was a no-no procedure-- not to mention difficult, with a thumbs-forward grip.

I guess I'm comparing apples to oranges to pears, but in terms of "safe handling", should he really have had it in DA?

I am not saying it is any safer from a trigger pull weight perspective against one another. However, if you are used to an 8-12 pund trigger pull for your first shot and now you are holding a 4lb, coupled with the inalienable FACT that research shows in high stress situations like "sweeping" a house, people have a tendancy to "reassure" the trigger by placing their finger on it--no matter how well trained. If a roomates wife were to jump out of a room while your finger was there, or you were to stumble, your sympathetic nervous system may induce a grip closure or you may jump and pull the trigger.

I am not saying there is any difference between a 4.5lb Glock trigger, and the 4.5lb SA trigger on a DA capable gun...obviously.

However, a prosecutor will trot countless experts that will say the weapon was designed to be carried in DA mode.

Again, if you want SA or Glock action...get a glock or XD or MP.

 

[Gus McCrae]

I don't think you're splitting hairs-- but I think a DA revolver or Sig, for example, would take more than a "startle response". I like them for that reason.

To the original question, carry decocked if that is an option, and ditto everything Nolacop said.

Don't disagree. A 12lb DA revolver trigger would be quite a startle response. But when dealing most other "DA" or striker fired pistols I don't see that much difference between them and SA.

 

[schnugee]

Nola,

My responses to your questions.

#1 Don't have a permit yet. I also work around the grounds of a ministry that contains a school, and last I heard it was a felony to have a weapon in my possession within 1000' of a school. So weapon stays at home most workdays. Apartment is set up with guest bathroom right off of front door which leads to my room, approx 10' of distance from entry until possession.

#2 All innocents were not out. Friends wife was shut up in bathroom terrified. My priority was ensuring her safety.

#3 I don't keep a round in the chamber, because it would require manually de-cocking the pistol after chambering a round. With this weapon, a manual de-cock seems much more likely to cause an accidental discharge than increase safety.

#4 She responded very poorly in my opinion. Her husband has helped get her some training from a qualified shooter and LEO, but she chose to panic and run though her room (and past several pistols and a shot gun) and lock herself into a bathroom closet. IMHO, she needs more training.

#5 I'll have to quote from a tag line I saw here in the forum, "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away." No offense intended to the LEOs here. If she was being attacked inside, I didn't feel like waiting outside and hoping for the best. I figured that she most likely got spooked by a noise, but better to be on scene sooner than later.

#6 I am currently 33 years young. I served in the USAF from 1995-2004, and the Kansas ANG from 2004-2007. My AFSC was 1T171, Aircrew Life Support. My primary duty was inspecting flight safety equipment, but I also was often responsible for issuing the M9 to aircrew members prior to flight, and recovering the same after. I qualified as a marksman with the Beretta M9.

No offense taken, I appreciate your input. I will say however that carrying a PT99 in DA is not how this weapon was "designed to be operated."

God Bless.

 

[Sin-ster]

I am not saying it is any safer from a trigger pull weight perspective against one another. However, if you are used to an 8-12 pund trigger pull for your first shot and now you are holding a 4lb, coupled with the inalienable FACT that research shows in high stress situations like "sweeping" a house, people have a tendancy to "reassure" the trigger by placing their finger on it--no matter how well trained. If a roomates wife were to jump out of a room while your finger was there, or you were to stumble, your sympathetic nervous system may induce a grip closure or you may jump and pull the trigger.

I am not saying there is any difference between a 4.5lb Glock trigger, and the 4.5lb SA trigger on a DA capable gun...obviously.

However, a prosecutor will trot countless experts that will say the weapon was designed to be carried in DA mode.

Again, if you want SA or Glock action...get a glock or XD or MP.

Ahhh, I see what you're saying now-- SA when you're used to DA, that makes sense. Yeah, I can double that notion-- still working on switching between the two, and under stress, it could easily screw me up. Never thought about indexing the trigger under stress, either. Good stuff.

And don't you mean to say "get an M&P or Glock or XD"?

 

[schnugee]

Sin-ster,

Pretty sure it was a Glock or an XD the LEO had holstered.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Nola,

My responses to your questions.

#1 Don't have a permit yet. I also work around the grounds of a ministry that contains a school, and last I heard it was a felony to have a weapon in my possession within 1000' of a school. So weapon stays at home most workdays. Apartment is set up with guest bathroom right off of front door which leads to my room, approx 10' of distance from entry until possession.

#2 All innocents were not out. Friends wife was shut up in bathroom terrified. My priority was ensuring her safety.

#3 I don't keep a round in the chamber, because it would require manually de-cocking the pistol after chambering a round. With this weapon, a manual de-cock seems much more likely to cause an accidental discharge than increase safety.

#4 She responded very poorly in my opinion. Her husband has helped get her some training from a qualified shooter and LEO, but she chose to panic and run though her room (and past several pistols and a shot gun) and lock herself into a bathroom closet. IMHO, she needs more training.

#5 I'll have to quote from a tag line I saw here in the forum, "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away." No offense intended to the LEOs here. If she was being attacked inside, I didn't feel like waiting outside and hoping for the best. I figured that she most likely got spooked by a noise, but better to be on scene sooner than later.

#6 I am currently 33 years young. I served in the USAF from 1995-2004, and the Kansas ANG from 2004-2007. My AFSC was 1T171, Aircrew Life Support. My primary duty was inspecting flight safety equipment, but I also was often responsible for issuing the M9 to aircrew members prior to flight, and recovering the same after. I qualified as a marksman with the Beretta M9.

No offense taken, I appreciate your input. I will say however that carrying a PT99 in DA is not how this weapon was "designed to be operated."

God Bless.

Thanks for the response. i understand what you are saying about the PT99's function. In the case of that particular gun, that is your only option after chambering a round since it has no decock. I hope this experience has shown you some potential problems with that design. My response was directly to your general question on DA's.

Your friends wife was scared. Even highly trained people react differently when faced with a real stressful situation. Perhaps she should have just ran out of the apartment in stead of barricading unarmed, but I wasn't there, and she did what she thought she had to do.

If you were going to enter, since you passed all the doors and things anyway, I would have advised if you insisted on entering a possible threat, I would have you go immediately to her and extricate her from the bathroom and you both exit the apartment. i do not know you, but I doubt you are properly trained in structure clearance techniques, and since LEO was called anyway, you saw the potentiality of "friendly fire" first hand.

If the weapon is capable of DA fire, I would advise you keep it loaded with a round on the chamber and hammer down so you do not have this dilemma. You can manually decock it in a non stressful situation which i personally think is safer than carrying a SA with no safety in a novice room clearing scenario.

If you are uncomfortable manually decocking your firearm, while I agree it is not best case scenario, i would advise you re-think your weapon choice.

thanks for being open minded though. Striker fired is the way to go for most people looking for a semi-auto.