Single or double action? Opinions wanted.

[schnugee]

Up until I saw the LEO standing inside the apartment, I had no idea one had been contacted. Had I known one was on the way, my response might have been different.

Do you know anywhere in the greater BTR area where a civillian can get some quality "situation in home" tactics & training? I always appreciate learning good stuff.

 

[honestlou]

Don't disagree. A 12lb DA revolver trigger would be quite a startle response. But when dealing most other "DA" or striker fired pistols I don't see that much difference between them and SA.

I agree. I really haven't shot glocks much, but I own an XD, and I think the trigger is scairy light for a gun with no safety. It's much closer to a single action pull with no safety than it is to a true double action. I really like traditional Sigs and revolvers because that first shot has to be intentional, and single action is an option if you have time and want it (and of course for follow up shots with the Sig).

A lot of people, while talking about the safety of guns in different carry conditions, like to tout proper training. Most of "us" and certainly most people, don't train as much as we would like or as much as we should; and as Nolacop pointed out, people tend to act differently under stress.

We prepare and train for the unexpected (or at least unlikely), so we shouldn't carry under the assumption that everything will go down as expected. People flinch, trip, stumble, jerk, etc. That's life.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Up until I saw the LEO standing inside the apartment, I had no idea one had been contacted. Had I known one was on the way, my response might have been different.

Do you know anywhere in the greater BTR area where a civillian can get some quality "situation in home" tactics & training? I always appreciate learning good stuff.

You need to keep your eyes open for training at VATA group in covington. They travel a lot for their jobs, but when they have a class, regardless of what it is, you need to go. Perhaps someone familiar with the BR instructors could give some reccs, but i do not know any personally.

 

[Sin-ster]

A lot of people, while talking about the safety of guns in different carry conditions, like to tout proper training. Most of "us" and certainly most people, don't train as much as we would like or as much as we should; and as Nolacop pointed out, people tend to act differently under stress.

We prepare and train for the unexpected (or at least unlikely), so we shouldn't carry under the assumption that everything will go down as expected. People flinch, trip, stumble, jerk, etc. That's life.

That's a double-edged sword, though. And the reason why (I believe) Nola is recommending striker fired pistols for most people.

A 1911 requires training to drop the safety. DA/SA requires training to make accurate hits with the first shot, and not jerk/flinch the follow ups. A striker fired pistol, or DA revolver for that matter, is point-and-shoot simple-- the same shot break, every time.

That's also why he advocates calling the police and waiting instead of trying to clear a building on your own. Most civilian shoots happen inside of 20 feet, and I'd be willing to bet it's "see the threat, draw, engage" the vast majority of the time. Seeking out a target goes against the very nature of a legally justified homicide-- unless they're in your home and you have loved ones in unsecured areas. In those cases, the safety risks are worth the ease of use for an "untrained" civilian.

It's a "something is better than nothing" type of ideal. As you should ideally, and most commonly, be drawing on a very real threat, the risk of ND is far less pressing than the risk of not stopping the threat when you're inclined to do so.

 

[Guate_shooter]

All I can say is WOW, lots of wrong things and points on that original post, I understand they have been "explained" some how by the OP but still as NOLACOP has said you should really look into more training and I highly recomend VATA Group the guys should have been back from deployment this week so I am sure whitin the next week or so they should be back with courses, if you want a personal course I recomend Mike Moore who is an instructor at GunSite in Arizona but then again its hard to meet his schedulle as he is always gone.

If a BG would have been inside as your first thought was and they would have had access to your own gun, your would have probably gotten 3 in your chest while making your way to your room, also I hope that you live in a downstairs apartment and not upstairs the liability of an accidental discharge while doing your "sweep" would have been HIGH if others could have been potentially hurt.

At the same time I hope you have taken into consideration if a confrontation would have taken place the aftermath of legal issues, as you have mentioned before there is a school zone close to your residence, also the gun was carried in SA mode and I assume your safety was OFF, you went INTO your residence with an intention to find your gun and take care of the BG you could have very easily waited on a Uniform Patrol to arrive and let him take care of this since your friends wife was in a "Safe" area being inside the bathroom, this are just a few points a Prosecutor Attorney would have LOVED to chew on. We all know your intentions were good, and the will to protect took over the situation but most people never think on what happens after you kill someone.

Stay safe!

 

[jimdana1942]

Too complicated for me.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Your first mistake was taking gun advice from a cop.

I'm obviously misreading this post...

 

[schnugee]

Let me try to say this without it turning into a rant. While I appreciate the insight the LEOs are providing, I have a question for them to think on. When you go off duty at the end of the day, do you lock all your weapons up in the station armory? If you do, then you have faith that the response time of your colleagues is sufficient enough to provide you with security. If not, then chances are that you feel beter about having the option of protecting yourself and your loved ones than relying soley upon a response from local law enforcement.

If you aren't willing to exclusively trust local law enforcement with the safety of your families, why do you seem to be advocating that the rest of us do? I am not trying to offend any one here, but it seems that many of the LEOs I come in contact with operate under a double standard. They usually insist that everyone rely exclusively on them, yet usually feel inclined to be self sufficient.

All I am asking is that you try to see things first as a citizen with the right to keep and bear arms, and secondly as a citizen within the office of law enforcement.

Thank you for your input.

 

[spanky]

I'm obviously misreading this post...

No, you read the words, just not the unconveyable sarcastic inflection.

 

[JBP55]

Interesting thread to say the least.

 

[honestlou]

Let me try to say this without it turning into a rant. While I appreciate the insight the LEOs are providing, I have a question for them to think on. When you go off duty at the end of the day, do you lock all your weapons up in the station armory? If you do, then you have faith that the response time of your colleagues is sufficient enough to provide you with security. If not, then chances are that you feel beter about having the option of protecting yourself and your loved ones than relying soley upon a response from local law enforcement.

If you aren't willing to exclusively trust local law enforcement with the safety of your families, why do you seem to be advocating that the rest of us do? I am not trying to offend any one here, but it seems that many of the LEOs I come in contact with operate under a double standard. They usually insist that everyone rely exclusively on them, yet usually feel inclined to be self sufficient.

All I am asking is that you try to see things first as a citizen with the right to keep and bear arms, and secondly as a citizen within the office of law enforcement.

Thank you for your input.

I think you made a good point about being able to protect yourself, but I haven't really seen where LEOs here have suggested otherwise. In this thread in particular, some valid comments were made about technique, once you had already made the decision to enter.

Having the right, and ability, to defend yourself and your family is not quite the same thing as deciding to enter a building where you thought a threat awaited, and I think it was valid to point that out as well.

I don't think anyone is trying to be overly critical. We often don't think about certain things until after they occur. Your real life situation here gives us an opportunity to discuss what happened, what was done right, and what was done wrong. Call it an "after action report", or call it a "teachable moment". Regardless of what you call it, it is valuable to all of us.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Let me try to say this without it turning into a rant. While I appreciate the insight the LEOs are providing, I have a question for them to think on. When you go off duty at the end of the day, do you lock all your weapons up in the station armory? If you do, then you have faith that the response time of your colleagues is sufficient enough to provide you with security. If not, then chances are that you feel beter about having the option of protecting yourself and your loved ones than relying soley upon a response from local law enforcement.

If you aren't willing to exclusively trust local law enforcement with the safety of your families, why do you seem to be advocating that the rest of us do? I am not trying to offend any one here, but it seems that many of the LEOs I come in contact with operate under a double standard. They usually insist that everyone rely exclusively on them, yet usually feel inclined to be self sufficient.

All I am asking is that you try to see things first as a citizen with the right to keep and bear arms, and secondly as a citizen within the office of law enforcement.

Thank you for your input.

You have totally missed the point. The only way I know to say it is if i came home and thought an intruder was in my house, even as a LEO, I would withdraw to a place of safety, preferably while still maintaining visual accountability of the area and call 911. That is the right thing to do from both a legal and a tactical standpoint in my opinion. My responses here have nothing to do with the RKBA. I am pretty sure I have made myself clear on my support of that in my last 8000+ posts.

I think you made a good point about being able to protect yourself, but I haven't really seen where LEOs here have suggested otherwise. In this thread in particular, some valid comments were made about technique, once you had already made the decision to enter.

Having the right, and ability, to defend yourself and your family is not quite the same thing as deciding to enter a building where you thought a threat awaited, and I think it was valid to point that out as well.

I don't think anyone is trying to be overly critical. We often don't think about certain things until after they occur. Your real life situation here gives us an opportunity to discuss what happened, what was done right, and what was done wrong. Call it an "after action report", or call it a "teachable moment". Regardless of what you call it, it is valuable to all of us.

This is much closer to the point. Your tactics were very poor. That does not mean you are a bad guy, but you put the incident on here, and now we are evaluating and all learning from your experience, and I sincerely do thank you for that and for remaining open minded. This is not a political argument, but one more of tactical decision making and weighing options and priorities. Your story shows you may still have a lot to learn about weapon selection for home defense, weapons handling, proper home defense techniques and tactics, and a few other things. This forum is one of several places where you can begin to gather information to make your skill sets more well rounded.

I have been in more homes than I care to count where I KNEW there was an armed criminal inside. It is a dangerous and tactically disadvantageous place to be. The cards are stacked against you from the start. That is why LEO try not to be there even though they are generally better trained and experienced than most home owners. The role of the LEO and the role of the home owner in these types of situations is completely different. Your foremost responsibility is to get you and yours to safety, not to "sweep" your hose in an attempt to locate the bad guy. That is what the LEO's job is.

Again...thank you for telling your story, and while I do not expect you to take the advice of people you have never met on an online forum, I hope we have at least given you some food for thought. Your incident has some very complex and thought provoking issues in from the gun to the tactics. I think we can all learn a lot from your experience. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

The only doubleaction I do not HATE....

Is the revolver.

I do not own doubleaction semiautos except for 'toys' (Walthers, Makarovs etc)

I use ether Single actions (1911's, Hi Powers etc) or striker fired (Glocks)

As Clint Smith said... "Doubleaction is a innovative solution to a nonexistant problem."

When I am/was FORCED to use on (Beretta M9) I always (When I had the Choice) manually cocked the hammer for the first shot.

WITHOUT EXTENSIVE TRAINING TO:

KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SITES ARE ON TARGET AND YOU HAVE MADE THE DECISION TO FIRE.

I would not recomend this.

IF you can do this UNDER STRESS. I see no issues.

Having lived with Single action's for years, I see no issues with 'racking a round' into the chamber and then manually lowering the hammer if you do not trust the mechanical safety.

I see NO POINT to dividing your training time to two different trigger pulls.

My $0.02

Oh, and +1 on first mistake listning to a cop about weapons handling.
Some... know ALOT.

Most... know less than the AVERAGE poster on this forum.
(FAR less)

ETA: Forgot about my CZ75B.

It 'lives' as a Single action... cocked and locked.

 

[TomTerrific]

NATA Group

Two posters recommended the NATA Group for training.

I did a google search and got no hits for them.

Would any of y'all have contact info, preferably a url?

 

[jmcrawf1]

Two posters recommended the NATA Group for training.

I did a google search and got no hits for them.

Would any of y'all have contact info, preferably a url?

It's actually VATA

 

[Guate_shooter]

It's actually VATA

^^^
What he said, Vata not NATA.

http://www.vatatrainingcenter.com/

 

[spanky]

Am I the only one on here that wouldn't wait for LE if it was thought that a BG was inside my friend's house and his wife was inside? Who cares if she was "in the bathroom" or another assumed safe place? I couldn't live with myself if she died because I waited outside for the cops.

 

[Guate_shooter]

Am I the only one on here that wouldn't wait for LE if it was thought that a BG was inside my friend's house and his wife was inside? Who cares if she was "in the bathroom" or another assumed safe place? I couldn't live with myself if she died because I waited outside for the cops.

I wouldn't wait either SPanky but at the same time your weapon is on your hip at all times, and you have more "training" than the average Joe.

I believe the situation would have changed should the OP had been a CHP holder with a solid background on tactics and technique and his weapon would have been of easy access, NOT for somebody to fly across the house just to get a gun while putting their own life in danger and others, just my .02 not like its worth anything to anybody.

 

[spanky]

I wouldn't wait either SPanky but at the same time your weapon is on your hip at all times, and you have more "training" than the average Joe.

I believe the situation would have changed should the OP had been a CHP holder with a solid background on tactics and technique and his weapon would have been of easy access, NOT for somebody to fly across the house just to get a gun while putting their own life in danger and others, just my .02 not like its worth anything to anybody.

It sounded to me like the OP went into his apartment and retrieved his gun then went up to his friend's apartment to extract the girl. Maybe I read it wrong?

 

[Guate_shooter]

It sounded to me like the OP went into his apartment and retrieved his gun then went up to his friend's apartment to extract the girl. Maybe I read it wrong?

Maybe i got it wrong myself and now u putting me in quesion LOL, I thought it was in the same apartment , and I understood as if he went to his room got a gun and then proceeded to sweep.