What is the best plastic pistol out right now and why?

[Sin-ster]

They have the best release in the business, why on earth would they change it??? Much faster than "normal" release... just use your trigger finger. No need to change your grip.

Meh, I gotta contend with this one.

While I'm sure enough practice would change the full disparity in "speed", from a natural "blank slate" stand point, your claim doesn't hold true for everyone. For example, I don't have to change my grip much at all on my EDC-- drop the strong thumb (which doesn't contact the pistol anyway) and out she goes. I have a difficult time on every HK I've ever tried, although it's admittedly easier with the full sized frames than with the compacts.

But to be fair, I might very well be the rarity in this regard. Just the same, it's not a sweeping truth. And I don't think with any amount of practice would I ever be as quick with an HK as I would be with any thumb-activated release-- especially not my M&P.

In reality, even with full competition rigs in place, dropping the mag and reacquiring a shooting grip (with the strong hand) is NOT the slow part of the process. Getting the mag off of your belt and into the gun, re-establishing your support hand position and getting the sights back on target are the all vastly more time consuming-- and problematic. Don't believe me? Watch Travis!



It's even more pronounced for we mere mortals, of course. Now I'm not saying that the mag drop CAN'T be the cause of a slow reload-- I've had it happen myself several times, thanks to ProGrip... But it's not the be-all, end-all of the process.

 

[Leonidas]

Let's put it this way... who would you rather take to bed? Lucille Ball, or Sophia Loren???

When they were both young, Lucille Ball, without hesitation. Since then Sophia Loren, without doubt, up to and including now.

 

[goteron]

Agree... With mag issue, not girl issue

Also, Glock is better engineered. Building a complex machine simply is more difficult than building it complex. I believe Glock made two mistakes. 1. Not Building the 9/40 frame as a .40 first and 2. Not evaluating the grip enough (maybe they did)

M&Ps fixed these issues, but are more complex, and I believe were there not patents in place, the internals would be more Glock like.

 

[RyanW]

I use my thumb for the release and have no issues. I even order the HK45 releases for all my guns, currently waiting to be installed by lazy ass armorer(me). I'm very curious to see how well they work.

 

[Sin-ster]

Hmmm... not sure how you arrived at THAT conclusion... but it isn't worth arguing over.

Regarding the mag release... true, it ain't for everybody. But everybody- of my acquaintance- who has small hands/short fingers, and has tried the HK release using the trigger finger, finds it much more user-friendly than a "normal" release. As in, you don't have to flip or twist the pistol to reach the damn thing. And that is what makes the difference; you don't have to re-acquire your firing grip while trying to get the magazine into the well and seat it. Those whose hands and/or fingers are big/long enough to manipulate a Browning style mag release without having to shift their grip... consider yourself fortunate.

.

I think the conclusion he makes is valid, within the context of a specific design intent/ideal. A very high and logical idea, though-- "something complex in a simple package". Fewer parts, fewer complications.

As to the mag release-- I'm starting to wonder if my hands aren't as small as I've always thought them to be! The problem I had was a combination of awkward angling to properly reach the thing, and the fact that my trigger finger is slightly crooked-- from use and multiple jams.

 

[goteron]

Give two engineering teams the same problem, generally you will get two different But similar solutions. In this case flock has designed a gun with fewer parts, commonality across nearly the entire line. They also did it cheaper. I believe there is less machining and assembly time. I also bet they have fewer parts out of spec. HK has an elegant solution, but elegant isn't always best. Each gun in a proficient shooters hand will yield nearly the same result.

For instance, the barrel O-ring on a USP.. Why, it doesn't increase accuracy... Doesn't help cycle a can, doesn't improve reliability... So what is the purpose. Wasn't it marketed to improve accuracy. They must not have tested it much, "just because we think it's a good idea, well use it"

These are just my opinions. Having owned both, I think a glock would survive more punishment.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Give two engineering teams the same problem, generally you will get two different But similar solutions. In this case flock has designed a gun with fewer parts, commonality across nearly the entire line. They also did it cheaper. I believe there is less machining and assembly time. I also bet they have fewer parts out of spec. HK has an elegant solution, but elegant isn't always best. Each gun in a proficient shooters hand will yield nearly the same result.

For instance, the barrel O-ring on a USP.. Why, it doesn't increase accuracy... Doesn't help cycle a can, doesn't improve reliability... So what is the purpose. Wasn't it marketed to improve accuracy. They must not have tested it much, "just because we think it's a good idea, well use it"

These are just my opinions. Having owned both, I think a glock would survive more punishment.

To be fair, I would say HK has the manufacturing quality to back up their complex designs. So that's a wash IMO. It DOES cause a substantial increase in production cost, and of course retail price. Does it do anything better than a Glock? I personally don't think so. To me it comes down to whether you prefer the functional design differences (grip, trigger, mag release) of the HK, and whether or not you're willing to pay a hefty premium for them.

 

[3fifty7]

I have a Glock and XD both in .40 No problems with either. Personal preference goes to the XD or was it the Glock well maybe it was the...oh hell I gotta go get em out of the safe and shoot em tomorrow.

 

[Mjolnir]

HK is understood by the firearms industry of having the best engineered and most thoroughly tested firearms in the world. Period.

Just look at Service Intervals of the competing brands as a clue.

Ultimately, what fits you sells you, however.


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[Bayoupiper]

Seburo, hands down.

.

 

[Mjolnir]

Give two engineering teams the same problem, generally you will get two different But similar solutions. In this case flock has designed a gun with fewer parts, commonality across nearly the entire line. They also did it cheaper. I believe there is less machining and assembly time. I also bet they have fewer parts out of spec. HK has an elegant solution, but elegant isn't always best. Each gun in a proficient shooters hand will yield nearly the same result.

For instance, the barrel O-ring on a USP.. Why, it doesn't increase accuracy... Doesn't help cycle a can, doesn't improve reliability... So what is the purpose. Wasn't it marketed to improve accuracy. They must not have tested it much, "just because we think it's a good idea, well use it"

These are just my opinions. Having owned both, I think a glock would survive more punishment.

Yes, that would explain many late model Gen3 and a crap load of Gen4 guns that run like tortoises...

I once lived in Smyrna, GA and befriended the then Assistant Nat'l Sales Mgr who now holds a similar title with a competing company who also does rifles.

I was given a chance to go through the facility and met some Austrian engineers. They were proud of their product and rightfully so.

Later in life when I was exposed to DV (Development Verification) and PV (Production Verification) testing I began to have an appreciation for both Glock and HK.

I also met several DevGru (actually, it was Marcinko and three or four others with him) at SHOT 2006 and I was an intermediary btwn Marcinko & Co. and Ford for a great project they were working on that did not feet enough traction.

Well, I'm a gun guy and I began asking them some detailed questions about gear and this is a summary of what they felt:

HK is the most durable.
Glock requires less general maintenance.
HK is better in salt water environment
HK is better "over the surf"
Glock requires less training to shoot well.

The stories of dragging them behind ships is oft repeated in conversation and we've all seem the safe of guns that was under water in NOLA and the HK looked a lot better off than the Glock that shared the briny water.

I'm learning to LOVE the LEM (Light FPBS, heavy TRS, DA Hammer Spring). I'm hooked.

As far as accuracy is concerned the HK is more of that then Glock; in fact, I find the P30 and HK45 to rival Sig in that department. As far as combat accuracy they are both well and good enough.

One, no two gr8 advantages for Glock: parts are all over the place and relatively inexpensive and it's silly simple to strip to the frame and put back together.


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[yamaha0343]

How about the PX4? Mine has been 100% reliable, and is very comfortable in my hand.

 

[goteron]

HK is understood by the firearms industry of having the best engineered and most thoroughly tested firearms in the world. Period.

Just look at Service Intervals of the competing brands as a clue.

Ultimately, what fits you sells you, however.


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Do you have backup for this?

No doubt they are well designed and built. But better than Glock, who knows. I don't think so.

Again, data on gen3s running poorly. Verifiable statistics. We can only go by what we know.

Those are interesting tests, but surface rust has little to do with mechanical engineering and more with coatings. Would a glock deal better with rust and sand as tolerances are generally looser?

This discussion is going down the Internet argument road. All of my posts are strictly my opinion based on what I know. If there is verifiable data to suggest otherwise I'll be happy to change my mind.

 

[Mjolnir]

Do you have backup for this?

No doubt they are well designed and built. But better than Glock, who knows. I don't think so.

Again, data on gen3s running poorly. Verifiable statistics. We can only go by what we know.

Those are interesting tests, but surface rust has little to do with mechanical engineering and more with coatings. Would a glock deal better with rust and sand as tolerances are generally looser?

This discussion is going down the Internet argument road. All of my posts are strictly my opinion based on what I know. If there is verifiable data to suggest otherwise I'll be happy to change my mind.

No company will give you that kind of data. Period. Again, compare maintenance schedules. Look at any testing that has been done. Todd Green is a great source but it is a sample of one. Go speak with those who are involved or who are close to those who are involved. I have done A LITTLE BIT of this and I'm wholly convinced.

Hey, I like the feel of the Gen4 Glock and I wish it to be "dead reliable"; I like how it feels in my hand and I like how I have zero pride of ownership. Combined with relatively low cost of purchase and with the RSA, NY1+4.5 lb connector the maintenance schedule has improved and the cost of that maintenance is low.

If you know any DEVGRU or CAG guys ask them what testing was done and what was compared.

I think you're at the very tip of the spear with either (overlooking the recent Glock fiasco).


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[EagleyeOne]

Mine works 100%, 78% of the time. From the age of 11, I feel i have truly put it through it's paces. While I have not been in combat with it, I did repel 3 separate attacks from Leon, the neighborhood bully who gave me 36 wedgies from the time I was 5 until last Thursday. (As a side note, we recently found out Leon is gay and has rectal cancer...KHARMA)

I find the trigger to be crisp, with short take-up , and marginal creep. Exactly what we have come to expect from a Tier one manufacturer. Ammunition is easy to come by unless you are in Africa or waiting for it to be supplied by the .gov after a major natural disaster. I find mechanical accuracy to be above that of the typical shooter, which only increases with training.

I tend to run mine sleek to allow me maximum mobility. Due to the short barrel length (Yes people, it is NFA legal), it works well for vehicle operations. For 13.99, I was able to install the Magpul BWM (Big Wheel Mount). Basically I turned my daily neighborhood driver into a Tactical Assualt Bug Out Vehicle. TABOV

YMMV

Just having some fun peeps. Everyone knows HK is the best. If you disagree, just ask them.

 

[Pale Horse]

Best plastic pistol? The one you can trade for a 1911.

Hey, it's been 7 pages and no one has said it yet.

 

[returningliberty]

Mine works 100%, 78% of the time. From the age of 11, I feel i have truly put it through it's paces. While I have not been in combat with it, I did repel 3 separate attacks from Leon, the neighborhood bully who gave me 36 wedgies from the time I was 5 until last Thursday. (As a side note, we recently found out Leon is gay and has rectal cancer...KHARMA)

I find the trigger to be crisp, with short take-up , and marginal creep. Exactly what we have come to expect from a Tier one manufacturer. Ammunition is easy to come by unless you are in Africa or waiting for it to be supplied by the .gov after a major natural disaster. I find mechanical accuracy to be above that of the typical shooter, which only increases with training.

I tend to run mine sleek to allow me maximum mobility. Due to the short barrel length (Yes people, it is NFA legal), it works well for vehicle operations. For 13.99, I was able to install the Magpul BWM (Big Wheel Mount). Basically I turned my daily neighborhood driver into a Tactical Assualt Bug Out Vehicle. TABOV

YMMV

Just having some fun peeps. Everyone knows HK is the best. If you disagree, just ask them.

You win the thread.

 

[goteron]

Do you have maintenance schedule information. I have looked at tests. Still not convinced... I have an open mind. I dont even shoot glocks, I have no dog in the fight.

 

[goteron]

I do want to re-try the LEM.

On the mag release...

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

CAG shoots Glocks and has for the last 6 or 7 years. They love them. My needs aren't devgrus needs. The "how well does it swim" requirement warps every gear selection those guys make. I sat on the commitee. I saw it first hand. Again HK is great but all the metrics being pitched about involve very subjective things.